Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Real 3D
02-07-2012, 12:16 AM
Tried the Defint class again yesterday. Wanted to have some fast and intense action. Front to enemy, bam, bam, bam, turn around, getting away, heading to enemy again, fire at will, looping...ups, you can't fly any looping?
There is an enemy directly above/below me and I have 45degree weapons at front, so twisting myself up or down, I won't get this enemy into my line of fire.
Then, the ship is really small, all zoomed out, to get an overview, it's hard to see in which direction I fly.
Zooming in, following Camera, it's hard to to see, where the enemy really is.

So I have a wish: I want to have a first-person-view for my small escort and a kind of 3D-radar.
I know, this is not Wing Commander, or X or Freespace, but without these features, the Defiant Class (and other small, fast turning escorts) are cut in what's their only strength: turning their weapons quickly towards the enemy. I don't ned to fly a looping with a cruiser, it's to slow in turning.
Putting 250degree phasers in it, doesn't feel like flying a Definat known from DS9, and even there, they fly loopings.

So, this is a little...frustrating.
At least, from Champions Online I know, the engine allows to go 90degree up and down.
First-person-vew should also be realizable from CO, but it seems to be disabled for STO. Why?

So what do you think about this?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-07-2012, 12:23 AM
I don't think many would disagree with you, however, we are at the mercy of the devs on this one. This has been discussed often, even in the short time I'm a member.

Fingers crossed it's something they are working on long term, though to be honest I don't find it game breaking I can count on one hand the number opf times I've found myself directly under something, generally enemies and other things stay close to the galactic plane. Some schools of thought say that it makes the game more accessible (having a fixed plane of movement), some people just don't get on with space sims for this reason, they get disoriented.

It has it's plusses and minuses. Perhaps they could make it an option?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
02-07-2012, 04:55 AM
I have only two things to say to this.

I can think of only one instance where the defiant looped, and that was a slow turning loop, similar to how a fighter jet would loop. mainly because all ships in star trek follow traditional force vectors.. are there front mounted impulse engines on these ships? ones on the top, bottom and sides? because i've never seen them.. impulse thrust is vectored from the rear, which limits movement to "mostly foward". While thrust vectoring could be implimented, the majority of that thrust is still directed towards forward movement. (for comparrison, look at Babylon 5's star furies and how their thrust systems are set up) this is not a limitation set by cryptic but by the actual designs of the ships in the series.

secondly please remember that even small escort ships like the defiant were manned by large crews. 50 upwards. they are not fighter craft, i cannot think of one instance in any sci fi where large ships with crew moved like fighters would, about the closest would be the white stars, again from babylon 5, and they were powered by a "gravimetric propulsion" drive if i recall, so could in theory alter local gravity effects to allow for sharper movements.

I would love a "pure 3D combat" aspect, its why i beta-tested black prophecy, but it doesnt fit in with the IP here.

there are ways to turn very very sharply in game too, i've never had a real problem bringing my cannons to bear on another ship, careful bursts of speed, cutting engines as you turn and pushing them back up to full can really have you turning almost on the spot and at speed too..
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-07-2012, 05:11 AM
FPS defiant view would be awesome

similar to shooter mode
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-07-2012, 06:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruis.In View Post
FPS defiant view would be awesome

similar to shooter mode
No it wouldn't be. It would completely ruin your situational awareness, which is key to victory in space. I rather like the view we have now. It reminds me of watching the shows. Sometimes I just gotta sit back and say wow, that looked just like it did in the shows or movies.

Full 3D flight, with full newtonian physics however. Similar to Independence War. Now that I could get behind.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
02-07-2012, 07:05 AM
Thats what made games like Klingon Academy so great.
You had a First Person mode, but still had full situational awareness thanks to a number of sensor displays, showing both XYZ axis readings as well as a small image of the target ship as viewed from your location.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
02-07-2012, 08:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shingi
I have only two things to say to this.

I can think of only one instance where the defiant looped, and that was a slow turning loop, similar to how a fighter jet would loop. mainly because all ships in star trek follow traditional force vectors.. are there front mounted impulse engines on these ships? ones on the top, bottom and sides? because i've never seen them.. impulse thrust is vectored from the rear, which limits movement to "mostly foward". While thrust vectoring could be implimented, the majority of that thrust is still directed towards forward movement. (for comparrison, look at Babylon 5's star furies and how their thrust systems are set up) this is not a limitation set by cryptic but by the actual designs of the ships in the series.

secondly please remember that even small escort ships like the defiant were manned by large crews. 50 upwards. they are not fighter craft, i cannot think of one instance in any sci fi where large ships with crew moved like fighters would, about the closest would be the white stars, again from babylon 5, and they were powered by a "gravimetric propulsion" drive if i recall, so could in theory alter local gravity effects to allow for sharper movements.

I would love a "pure 3D combat" aspect, its why i beta-tested black prophecy, but it doesnt fit in with the IP here.

there are ways to turn very very sharply in game too, i've never had a real problem bringing my cannons to bear on another ship, careful bursts of speed, cutting engines as you turn and pushing them back up to full can really have you turning almost on the spot and at speed too..
With the greatest of respect, I don't think you understood the OP, or you are using the thread to launch a debate about something else. He simply wants to be able to point his ship in any direction. None of what you said is relevant to that desire, and there is no justification for not being able to do so. Keep the galactic plane, I don't mind, but let me pull up and keep pulling up if I want to. What has the configuration of the impulse engines got to do with the fact that you cannot increase pitch past 60 degrees or whatever it is? Please, don't misunderstand, I'm not flaming you, just pointing out that I don't think maybe you got what he was saying.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
02-07-2012, 08:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aashenfox
With the greatest of respect, I don't think you understood the OP, or you are using the thread to launch a debate about something else. He simply wants to be able to point his ship in any direction. None of what you said is relevant to that desire, and there is no justification for not being able to do so. Keep the galactic plane, I don't mind, but let me pull up and keep pulling up if I want to. What has the configuration of the impulse engines got to do with the fact that you cannot increase pitch past 60 degrees or whatever it is? Please, don't misunderstand, I'm not flaming you, just pointing out that I don't think maybe you got what he was saying.
well.. that all depends on what the OP meant by "real 3D"

if he's talking about full directional thrust on all three axis independantly, then thats contrary to the IP and the design of the ships. I wouldnt mind seeing directional thrusters, but we'd be talking about at the speeds you get limited down to when approaching ESD.

The point i was making was that, for shooting and story convenience, the IP has traditionally not shown ships fighting inverted, making drastic banks or even barrel rolls.. DS9 towards the end, as it moved to CGI for the huge fleet shots, began to do this, but the defiant, to my recollection, only ever did a full loop on-screen once (a POV shot while chasing a Jem'Hadar ship in the battle to break through to DS9 and stop the minefield from coming down) and the NX pulled it off once at the start of the third season (and all the crew thought archer was insane for even considering it)

the design of the ships, the large size of them, even "small" ships like the defiant, and choices made by the IP since before the internet even existed have always limited the ship to ship combat to the style we see.

if he's only talking about increasing the pitch degree, i think it wouldnt break the "rules" for the IP to allow up to about 90 degrees.. any further and we'd be into "inversion" and that would be contrary to those "rules"

hope that clears up what i was trying to say there.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
02-07-2012, 10:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard454 View Post
No it wouldn't be. It would completely ruin your situational awareness, which is key to victory in space. I rather like the view we have now. It reminds me of watching the shows. Sometimes I just gotta sit back and say wow, that looked just like it did in the shows or movies.

Full 3D flight, with full newtonian physics however. Similar to Independence War. Now that I could get behind.
Well, first-person-view would be optional. If you wanted, you can use it. If you want full awareness and can't get it in fpv, you just don't zoom in so far.

I don't think the game physics of IW fits to ST. Have you ever seen a ship looking into another direction as it actually moves? Not in ST. Babylon 5, yes. But not ST.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shingi
well.. that all depends on what the OP meant by "real 3D"

if he's talking about full directional thrust on all three axis independantly, then thats contrary to the IP and the design of the ships. I wouldnt mind seeing directional thrusters, but we'd be talking about at the speeds you get limited down to when approaching ESD.

The point i was making was that, for shooting and story convenience, the IP has traditionally not shown ships fighting inverted, making drastic banks or even barrel rolls.. DS9 towards the end, as it moved to CGI for the huge fleet shots, began to do this, but the defiant, to my recollection, only ever did a full loop on-screen once (a POV shot while chasing a Jem'Hadar ship in the battle to break through to DS9 and stop the minefield from coming down) and the NX pulled it off once at the start of the third season (and all the crew thought archer was insane for even considering it)

the design of the ships, the large size of them, even "small" ships like the defiant, and choices made by the IP since before the internet even existed have always limited the ship to ship combat to the style we see.

if he's only talking about increasing the pitch degree, i think it wouldnt break the "rules" for the IP to allow up to about 90 degrees.. any further and we'd be into "inversion" and that would be contrary to those "rules"

hope that clears up what i was trying to say there.
I talked about turning.
So increasing the pitch beyond 60 degrees or whatever it is.
And even when going over 90degrees, it could be possible to automatically turn the ships top back upside, so don't have any "inversion".
But I do think, the game engine can't handle this, so in my opinion 89 degree would already better than as it is now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
02-07-2012, 10:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shingi
I have only two things to say to this.

I can think of only one instance where the defiant looped, and that was a slow turning loop, similar to how a fighter jet would loop. mainly because all ships in star trek follow traditional force vectors.. are there front mounted impulse engines on these ships? ones on the top, bottom and sides? because i've never seen them.. impulse thrust is vectored from the rear, which limits movement to "mostly foward". While thrust vectoring could be implimented, the majority of that thrust is still directed towards forward movement. (for comparrison, look at Babylon 5's star furies and how their thrust systems are set up) this is not a limitation set by cryptic but by the actual designs of the ships in the series.

secondly please remember that even small escort ships like the defiant were manned by large crews. 50 upwards. they are not fighter craft, i cannot think of one instance in any sci fi where large ships with crew moved like fighters would, about the closest would be the white stars, again from babylon 5, and they were powered by a "gravimetric propulsion" drive if i recall, so could in theory alter local gravity effects to allow for sharper movements.

I would love a "pure 3D combat" aspect, its why i beta-tested black prophecy, but it doesnt fit in with the IP here.

there are ways to turn very very sharply in game too, i've never had a real problem bringing my cannons to bear on another ship, careful bursts of speed, cutting engines as you turn and pushing them back up to full can really have you turning almost on the spot and at speed too..
Actually, I do not think that is the case for the following reasons:

1) Many times it can be heard impulse being ordered into "full reverse". If impulse engines operate on simple thrust, then they must be able to channel almost as much power forwards as backwards which means impulse "ports" on the front.

2) I believe it has been stated by those at the top that Impulse engines operate by warping space, similar to warp engines, although not to the degree that they could travel "faster" than light.

3) The thrusters clearly operate on thrust and could probably turn a low mass ship like the Defiant very quickly. Indeed, we saw the Enterprise D do a half turn in a matter of about a second (presumably using thrusters). Even if the impulse engines do work like thrusters, that has absolutely no bearing on turn speed. The ship could still do a loop or a barrel roll just as quickly regardless of the forward speed (that is how vector addition works). The only bearing having more thrust in the rear would have is on turn radius at high speeds, but not turn time.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:33 PM.