Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
02-07-2012, 10:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicBlue
I talked about turning.
So increasing the pitch beyond 60 degrees or whatever it is.
And even when going over 90degrees, it could be possible to automatically turn the ships top back upside, so don't have any "inversion".
But I do think, the game engine can't handle this, so in my opinion 89 degree would already better than as it is now.
oh the game engine can invert, i think the problem is the larger majority cant handle that, in terms of motion and controls.

I mentioned i beta tested BP, main reason why i didnt continue playing with it, aside from the fact that you could accidently jump into higher level PvP and have someone spawn-camp you so you couldnt even escape while they racked up kills and points, was that it was a 3D shooter style in space, full rotation, inversion, rolls and loops common tactics, but its pretty damn hard to fully control yourself in all three axis and maintain a firing solution.. which, for me, made battles pretty long and frustrating.

I know STO uses a auto-lock style system, but it IS hard to keep track of a target in a system like that.

STO's space combat is well regarded, its often called the strongest point of the game, I agree with you completely on the increase of pitch angle, more so than they've already done (i think it used to be about 45 degrees only) but inversion, and the reversal of control it brings, would complicate the control system too much for a casual player as well as go against canon ship tactics.

Maybe what the devs could do would be to introduce an optional mode, like the ground shooter mode, for shuttles and small craft that allows rolls and loops, to see how popular it is and how well people can use it?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
02-07-2012, 11:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakarak
Actually, I do not think that is the case for the following reasons:

1) Many times it can be heard impulse being ordered into "full reverse". If impulse engines operate on simple thrust, then they must be able to channel almost as much power forwards as backwards which means impulse "ports" on the front.

2) I believe it has been stated by those at the top that Impulse engines operate by warping space, similar to warp engines, although not to the degree that they could travel "faster" than light.

3) The thrusters clearly operate on thrust and could probably turn a low mass ship like the Defiant very quickly. Indeed, we saw the Enterprise D do a half turn in a matter of about a second (presumably using thrusters). Even if the impulse engines do work like thrusters, that has absolutely no bearing on turn speed. The ship could still do a loop or a barrel roll just as quickly regardless of the forward speed (that is how vector addition works). The only bearing having more thrust in the rear would have is on turn radius at high speeds, but not turn time.
in response

1) I've yet to see a ship at "full reverse" move as fast as a ship moving forward under impulse in the series or films. nor have i seen anything in any ships design to suggest an impulse port at the front of a ship, or in a forward facing manner. I admit i'm at a loss to explain how an impulse engine could run in reverse, as they're essentially rocket-style engines, with thrust being generated by expulsion of energy/matter from a vectored nozzle..

2) Impulse engines work in conjunction with an intertial dampening field, to lower the forward moving mass thus reduce the strain on the superstructure and improve effeciency. part of that system is noted to create a subspace field, as its the most effective method of lowering mass.

3) with 2 engines with individual thrust vectoring, along with the ability to "reverse" the abilty to turn literally on the spot is feasable.. like how tractor treads work on the ground, with one going one way, the second going the other way to the first. in fact with such a system highly acrobatic manuvours would be possible, but the stress created would be massive. manuvouring thrusters do not have much push, certainly not enough to radically alter trajectory of a large mass moving in one direction at velocity, and in the various series are generally used for docking or fine movements

generally, the whole impulse engine thing is a mystery in terms of how it would or could work in "real physics" terms... all i can do is put my limited understanding of thrust and physics towards how the ships move on-screen in the series and films and guess at how the gaps are filled. Thrust vectoring systems are the only way i can imagine how a system designed for movement and placed in a physically limiting position for the actual expulsion of that thrust could even move the ship in any other direction.

we could get into the whole set up, in fact i'd probably enjoy that but that'd derail this topic a fair bit..
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
02-08-2012, 08:24 AM
1) I could probably get a bunch of examples, but there are numerous occasions when the impulse engines are brought to "full reverse" to essentially bring the ship to a standstill relative to some ship or natural phenomena. Since in some of those cases the ship was presumably moving at full impulse prior to "stopping", it is implied that the ship can apply as much "thrust" (or however impulse engines work) forward as backward. My supposition would be whatever thrust (if any) is applied by the impulse engines can be channeled through various thruster ports to act in any direction, and indeed, this seems to be supported by the decision to make newer ships have smaller rear impulse ports. I am not certain if they have ever shown this on the screen, but it is certainly implied by the script.

3) Yeah, my point was, how vast the ship is moving forward (assuming non-relativistic velocities) really makes no difference in terms of turning time, just in terms of radius (a speedboat turning at a constant angular velocity will complete a turn in a fixed amount of time regardless of forward velocity but the higher the forward velocity, the larger the turn radius.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
02-08-2012, 08:45 AM
I did get to thinking how a rear-facing vectored thrust device could provide rearward thrust without needing to have front facing thrust.. this is what i came up with

two impulse engines on each side of the ship with 270 degree vectoring. to move in reverse you would need to split the thrust into two independant channels on each engine.

if we take the thrust pointing exactly back as the zero point, you could point a channel on each engine to 135 desgrees "up" (say towards the topside of a saucer section) and the other channel to 135 degrees "down" (the bottom side of a saucer section) on each engine, this would counter act rotational forces and allow for a straight line reverse from a rear facing..

as for output, well impulse engines are noted as being limited to 1/4th lightspeed due to the time dilation effects of near light speed relativistic travel, so its possible that the loss of effeciency of such a system can be overcome by increasing output, as the engines could in theory put out more than they are limited to.

the fatal flaw in this argument is that if such a vectoring system was in place, ships could be moved in almost any direction at full speed,... which they cant (or dont as seen on the shows/films) .

as i said, the "full reverse" that is often used throws a real spanner in the works of any argument regarding how impulse engines provide thrust based on their location on the ship and how they are listed as working.. kinda like how transporters are practically impossible to explain with most understandings of physics.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
02-08-2012, 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shingi
I did get to thinking how a rear-facing vectored thrust device could provide rearward thrust without needing to have front facing thrust.. this is what i came up with

two impulse engines on each side of the ship with 270 degree vectoring. to move in reverse you would need to split the thrust into two independant channels on each engine.

if we take the thrust pointing exactly back as the zero point, you could point a channel on each engine to 135 desgrees "up" (say towards the topside of a saucer section) and the other channel to 135 degrees "down" (the bottom side of a saucer section) on each engine, this would counter act rotational forces and allow for a straight line reverse from a rear facing..

as for output, well impulse engines are noted as being limited to 1/4th lightspeed due to the time dilation effects of near light speed relativistic travel, so its possible that the loss of effeciency of such a system can be overcome by increasing output, as the engines could in theory put out more than they are limited to.

the fatal flaw in this argument is that if such a vectoring system was in place, ships could be moved in almost any direction at full speed,... which they cant (or dont as seen on the shows/films) .

as i said, the "full reverse" that is often used throws a real spanner in the works of any argument regarding how impulse engines provide thrust based on their location on the ship and how they are listed as working.. kinda like how transporters are practically impossible to explain with most understandings of physics.
Watch the episode Relics. They clearly state that they enter the Dyson sphere 90 M km from the photosphere and establish an orbit 150000 km from the photosphere and then travel that distance back again in less than two minutes. That means that they need to travel approximately 90 M km in 2 m at an average speed of 750 000 km/s or more than two times the speed of light! Well, I guess we are going to have to assume that some time passed between the time they set course to the doorway and the time at which it was stated they were 1:47 away, but let's not be too generous.

So, in a matter of minutes (lets say ten or twenty so they do not have to exceed 1/4 c) they manage to reach the doorway. Now, clearly they are passing very slowly through the doorway, on the order of probably no more than 1km/s, so they had to be traveling at relativistic velocities for most of the trip, which means that they had to both accelerate to that velocity and decelerate to nearly zero in a matter of at most, a few minutes. Clearly, the impulse engines (which are operating at .6 power) must be capable of generating nearly as much power in reverse as forward.

You can actually gauge their relative forward speed because it is comparable to their rotational speed (although obviously the rotational thruster/impulse power is pretty incredible since it manages to turn the whole ship one half turn and stop it from turning further in a second or two).

Now, my supposition is that the impulse engine can only warp space linearly (that is forward and backward) which is why you only hear them say full impulse or reverse impulse but never port impulse or lateral impulse. Based on this supposition, the only way to turn or rotate the ship is with thrusters, and based upon the speed that they can accelerate and decelerate a Galaxy class ship, these thrusters are very powerful, although not nearly as powerful as the forward/backward acceleration of the impulse engines.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
02-10-2012, 01:20 AM
Damn, you are way too much in real physics now.
None of us really knows, how the Impluse Drive works - nor does any "official": no Game-Developer, not Gene Roddenberry or any other at Paramount Pictures, and most of all no Physician. I mean, there shall be a "Heisenberg Compensator", but we all know that his uncertainty principle can't be compensated, not today, not tomorrow, not in any future. Same from traveling faster with light. Not in our universe, not with a warp drive as ist is said to work in Star Trek by curving space.
This is science fiction.
So lets stay with the sci-fi star trek related physics we know from tv and movies and put these into this game.
Well, in fact, I'm quite happy about the physics we see in game.
So, can we get back on topic, please?

# All I want is to increase the pitch to about 90 degrees (or more if possible, but I doubt about that, because it's also impossible to go beyond 90 degrees in Champions Online, so I thinks its a game engine restriction. But you can increase you pitch to 89 degrees in CO, so thats what I want for STO).
# Than a first person view for space for those who want it (like you can switch between RPG and shooter style on ground).
# In this fpv we need some kind of a 3D radar, our ship at the centre of a sphere, showing the relative positions of any other ship within 15km, and a second sphere showing the max comabt range at 10km.
# perhaps for 45 an 90 degree weapons a circle projected at the 10km sphere in fpv (see picture here or below)

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3619/imgynj.jpg
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
02-10-2012, 08:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicBlue
Damn, you are way too much in real physics now.
None of us really knows, how the Impluse Drive works - nor does any "official": no Game-Developer, not Gene Roddenberry or any other at Paramount Pictures, and most of all no Physician. I mean, there shall be a "Heisenberg Compensator", but we all know that his uncertainty principle can't be compensated, not today, not tomorrow, not in any future. Same from traveling faster with light. Not in our universe, not with a warp drive as ist is said to work in Star Trek by curving space.
This is science fiction.
So lets stay with the sci-fi star trek related physics we know from tv and movies and put these into this game.
Well, in fact, I'm quite happy about the physics we see in game.
So, can we get back on topic, please?

# All I want is to increase the pitch to about 90 degrees (or more if possible, but I doubt about that, because it's also impossible to go beyond 90 degrees in Champions Online, so I thinks its a game engine restriction. But you can increase you pitch to 89 degrees in CO, so thats what I want for STO).
# Than a first person view for space for those who want it (like you can switch between RPG and shooter style on ground).
# In this fpv we need some kind of a 3D radar, our ship at the centre of a sphere, showing the relative positions of any other ship within 15km, and a second sphere showing the max comabt range at 10km.
# perhaps for 45 an 90 degree weapons a circle projected at the 10km sphere in fpv (see picture here or below)

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3619/imgynj.jpg
Well, if you read the TNG technical manual and other sources and listen to some of the long-standing people working on the show who helped maintained continuity, they do often describe how things work. Sometimes it is absurd, sometimes it is actually pretty scientifically realistic.

For instance, on the show they never really travel faster than the speed of light. They operate well within the existing laws of physics (specifically GR) with their warp drive. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. Also, I do not ever remember them explicitly stating that the Heisenberg compensator allows them to measure the exact quantum state of a subatomic particle, but the transporter is a much more mysterious device (in terms of the physics involved) than the warp drive, so I will leave it be.

Also, the current flight pitches and angles are not a game engine restriction. They are a restriction put into place by Cryptic to make the game simpler which they justify by saying that it limits you to flying in ways that are typically seen in the series.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
02-10-2012, 09:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicBlue
Damn, you are way too much in real physics now.
None of us really knows, how the Impluse Drive works - nor does any "official": no Game-Developer, not Gene Roddenberry or any other at Paramount Pictures, and most of all no Physician. I mean, there shall be a "Heisenberg Compensator", but we all know that his uncertainty principle can't be compensated, not today, not tomorrow, not in any future. Same from traveling faster with light. Not in our universe, not with a warp drive as ist is said to work in Star Trek by curving space.
This is science fiction.
So lets stay with the sci-fi star trek related physics we know from tv and movies and put these into this game.
Well, in fact, I'm quite happy about the physics we see in game.
So, can we get back on topic, please?

# All I want is to increase the pitch to about 90 degrees (or more if possible, but I doubt about that, because it's also impossible to go beyond 90 degrees in Champions Online, so I thinks its a game engine restriction. But you can increase you pitch to 89 degrees in CO, so thats what I want for STO).
# Than a first person view for space for those who want it (like you can switch between RPG and shooter style on ground).
# In this fpv we need some kind of a 3D radar, our ship at the centre of a sphere, showing the relative positions of any other ship within 15km, and a second sphere showing the max comabt range at 10km.
# perhaps for 45 an 90 degree weapons a circle projected at the 10km sphere in fpv (see picture here or below)

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3619/imgynj.jpg
The warp drive is plausible. Current physics theory does say that if you could "warp" the spacetime continuum, compressing it in front of you and expanding it behind you, you could travel a given distance in less time than if you did it through unwarped space. You yourself wouldn't actually exceed lightspeed, but you would appear to to outside observers. (I believe I saw Neil deGrasse Tyson say this on a show on Discovery Channel, but I'm not certain of that. Only that I have seen it.)

Back on topic, I don't expect we'll ever get that close to 90 pitch, because then the idea of attacks coming in from one side or another breaks down, and they'd have to add ventral and dorsal shields.

But a pitch greater than 45, even just 50, would, I believe, allow us to bring weapons with a 45 firing arc to bear on ships directly "above" or "below" our own, and resolve the most common complaint about the current limited pitch angle. And it would still work with the current "4 shields only" game mechanic.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
02-11-2012, 04:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripp_Hazzard
The warp drive is plausible. Current physics theory does say that if you could "warp" the spacetime continuum, compressing it in front of you and expanding it behind you, you could travel a given distance in less time than if you did it through unwarped space. You yourself wouldn't actually exceed lightspeed, but you would appear to to outside observers. (I believe I saw Neil deGrasse Tyson say this on a show on Discovery Channel, but I'm not certain of that. Only that I have seen it.)
Well, I heard, this would cost more energie, than the universe itself has got.
So it's plausible, but impossible.

Quote:
Back on topic, I don't expect we'll ever get that close to 90 pitch, because then the idea of attacks coming in from one side or another breaks down, and they'd have to add ventral and dorsal shields.

But a pitch greater than 45, even just 50, would, I believe, allow us to bring weapons with a 45 firing arc to bear on ships directly "above" or "below" our own, and resolve the most common complaint about the current limited pitch angle. And it would still work with the current "4 shields only" game mechanic.
I'm not quite sure, if I understand what you mean.
The max pitch is now about 60 degrees.
But even without moving at this pitch, right now you can attack ships that are directly above or below you - if you use 180 degrees or 250 degrees weapons, you can even fly with 0 degree pitch under or over them.
So I guess, there is a mechanic, that resolves the "problem" of attacks coming not from the side right now, so that shouldn't be the problem for increasing the pitch to 89 degrees.

Be link below is a picture, showing how the shields do work I think.
http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/9567/imgsfr.jpg
So there is np need for ventral and dorsal shields.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
02-11-2012, 07:25 AM
+1 for 3D radar

minimap = mostly useless for space
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