Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Tactics and builds discussion
02-08-2012, 07:17 AM
Over in my "why STO game design is not suited for emulating Trek" thread, Husanak tried to change the subject and gave quite specific and interesting advice (be it for PvP or whatever). But this advice was offtopic there, so let us discuss it here. By extension, we could discuss builds and tactics in general, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
[...]
Now specific help....
1) loose the transphasic torp... 12 sec is too long... dmg is too weak bleed is pathetic.
Looking at the numbers, I must agree with you. Something more punishing is required. I had experimented with a Tricobalt devide, but its cadence was too low.

The idea behind a single torp launcher aft was to have some surprise for any escort that, while trying to avoid the fore weapons (see below), uses its superior maneuverability to stay right behind my cruiser.

Quote:
2) LOOSE the single cannons... they are one of the cheapest weapons in the game for a reason. You need to be with in 3k for them too be effective in anyway... no experienced pvp player is going to hang out with in 3k of your forward arc for you too use the properly... and honesty the dps is so low they might not even care as there shield heals will keep up with their dmg.
If I am not mistaken, there is no information available about the 3km limit anywhere. According to the STO Wiki and in-game sources, they just do more DPS than a beam array at the cost of some target arc. They are, as the numbers display themselves to me, a good way to increase front and broadside DPS for a slow-turning ship.

What is your source for the 3km?

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3) Choose what you intend too do with your cruiser...
After which you essentially say, choose a healer.

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4) Defensive BOFFs and rolling your heals / defensive skills.
- Emergency power to shields...
Have that one. Check.

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- Transfer Shield Strength... This is a must have skill for ANY ship. IF you don't have this skill you are at a disadvantage. Using TSS with EPTS will make you almost invincable for 15 sec. Using TSS with Tac team is almost the same effect.
My science officer has that one. Check.

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- Tactical Team...
Have that one. Check.

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- Hazard Emmiters... This skill is pretty much a must have in pvp as well... you may only be able to fit a HZ 1 and that is fine. it is a a hot hull heal and it will also break you from Warp Plasma holds.
Here I have Polarize Hull instead. Will have to look up that one.

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- Aux to SIF... [....]
Have that one. Check.

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- Engi Team... this is a good burst hull heal and it cures all sorts of nasty stuff people will use against you in pvp.. a cruiser must have an escort nice to have.
Have that one. Check.

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- Shield Battaries -
I have usually 20 of those in place. Check.

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Now the key too the skills is understanding when to roll them... most pug cruisers I open up on will hit 3 to 5 of the above skills all at once... too which I laugh switch targets for 15 seconds. (which in most pugs means that guy blows off all his as well) then I switch back while everything is on cool down and kill them in 3-4 seconds.
I do that, too, and the reason is simple: One won't help, as after hitting one, the shield strength keeps dropping and I am where I was a second or two before. (Except for Reverse Shield Polarity, but you can only use that so often.)

Quote:
DON"T pop every single heal you have when I take a shield facing.... Pop ONE shield heal... use evasive manuvers too turn... and ALWAYS pop brace for impact when you loose a shield facing.
I am probably mistaken, given how little experience I have, but my impression is that I will be dead pretty much immediately if I do that.

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A couple skills that are nice to have if you have room for them
- Polarized hull - this one is under rated it brakes tractor beams which is nice but more nice is if you have lots of resist... I use this skill on my B'rel birds often... it is good enough that if I pop it a full aux I can run around with no shields for 15 sec and mostly be ok if I am only under cruiser fire.
- Sci team - week shield heal but a nice cure for some sci powers.... it will also boost sci power effect for a few sec... so you can use it to make Hazards heal more ect.
With which you have named your third and fourth science abilities - as a proposal for an Assault Cruiser.

Of course it is good to have many powers, but the number of slots is limited.

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Last note power levels.... you HAVE to have presets ready too go. You can not stay in one power setting. You must have a weapon setting... a Aux setting... a Shield setting... and an engine setting. You must also know when too use them. If you are under fire shield isn't always the best option... if you have hazard emitters up and TSS... switch too AUX and use those skills they will be boosted by the higher aux setting... when they are on cool down switch to shield... when you are not under fire and applying pressure use weapon setting.
That is a very interesting aspect. In my limited experience, putting all power to shields is next to useless in battle, as it will only increase the amount of shield points that heal once every 6 seconds. But usually, after 6 seconds you are either dead or will survice without much regular shield regeneration anyway.

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Sorry for the long post... honesty please stop in on the Opvp chan and take up the games pvp it can be fun as hell... like most pvp it can also be frustrating too no end at times. The game is very team based and even good players that pug will at times want to whip their keyboard... you will find team mates in Opvp though and high skill games (on both sides) can be some of the most fun you will have in any video game you have played I hope you stick with it.
[...]
Well, I might try it, despite my earlier conclusion that this was way too fast for me.

. o O (Of course, if there was some kind of autofire for abilities.... with conditions to define when to fire them...)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-08-2012, 09:10 AM
This may help also.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavairo
"I should be facerolling Escorts and bops with my Ship of the line! This isn't canon!" This is a common variation on frustrated pvpers. Often times they will post what appears to be an indepth analyisis even as to "just what makes Escorts and bops OP" When frankly, they couldn't be more wrong. The first question to ask, is a Cruiser a DPS Ship? The answer is as follows. While there are a couple of exceptions to the rule, by and large...

Nope unless you are following a fairly narrow Tac Cruiser build your job isn't dps (and then with a tac cruiser the best ones in my opinion, treat damage at best as an equal partner to the ships native role fedside). Your role is support, first and foremost as a cruiser. You have to keep your team mates alive through the alpha strikes coming in from the klingon attacks / enemy escorts (FvF if the latter). Once you keep your team mate alive (most likely an Escort since those are almost always priority one in pvp to kill, they are the squishiest fedside. Though, I often target Gal X's first, as nothing is so clearly a Noob Pilot as someone in any Galaxy Class Variant) then your enemy you'll find has alot less damage for around thirty seconds or so afterwards, in which case it's a slow build up back up, which is far more managable with healing.

Cruisers are actually the hardest ships to kill when built properly, due to having very high native damage reduction, shield strength and hull points. Especially engineering cruisers, as they have access to a host of self heal capability that other classes do not have. When the pilot of a cruiser doesn't suck, he doesn't become a high priority/easy quick kill. Use powers like Emergency Power to Shields 2, and 1, Engineering team 2 and 3, Aux to structural integrity field 3, Extend Shields 2, Reverse Shield Polarity1, and if you are a Tac, Emergency Power to Weapons1, or if you are an engineer or sci captain, Emergency Power to Aux1. For tactical slots, run Tactical Team1, and either Attack Pattern Delta1, or Tactical team 1, and Beam Overload2. (if you are a tac) Science powers, Hazard Emitters1/Polarize Hull1, and Transfer Shield strength2, or two transfer shield strengths. (1 and 2)

If you have an extra ensign slot, you might as well throw target engines there to assist in controlling enemy movement.

If you have the following powers on your ship remove them immediately because they are utterly worthless. Emergency Power to Weapons 2 and up. Emergency to Aux 2 and up, Emergency to Engines 2 and up. Aux to Battery 1 and up. Boarding Party 1 and up, Aceton Field 1 and up. Aux to Inertial Dampeners 2 (1 is just as good as 2 is), Jam Sensors, Scramble Sensors (not really worthless but it's not a cruiser power by any means), Tachyon Beam1 or 2, (1 is terrible and you do not have the turn rate to make 2 work) Energy Siphon1, Torpedo High Yield 1 or 2 *again you don't really have the turn rate for this one, and only tacs really get the miles out of this use Torp Spread instead great for Escorts though* Beam Overload1 (only good for killing shuttles... BO2 is much better)

Power levels should be weapons /25 Shields /75, Engines /25 Aux /75 for healing configuration, and if you are running emergency to weapons instead of aux, weapons /75 shields /75 engines /25 aux /25

That's just a sample fairly standard healcruiser build it works great with the Assault Cruiser, and the gal X (as much as anything can work with that ugly, and horrible ship seriously gtfo out of it ASAP the Galaxy X is a terrible ship. It's not as bad as it used to be but it's still the worst cruiser in the game. It's a Vanity Item at best and a Bullseye creator at worst as no other ship in the game clearly marks you as a Noob as a Gal X.. cause everyone that has experience avoids it, and the Gal Retrofit like the black plague) star cruisers I'll cover later. There's a few other more advanced build options you can run, but this is a good one to learn on as it has plenty of healing for team mates, (and heal your team mates! if you save them all for yourself you are only getting your allies killed!) The Excelsior is a damage ship, but is best employed by Tactical and Science captains. Engineers need not apply unless you enjoy wasting your time. (as Engineer captains do not do DPS, nor do they do Debuffing like science captains do)

Emergency powers are the lifeblood of a good fedcruiser, as they enable you to greatly boost your power level for whatever emergency to X you are running at the time. Emergency Power to Shields can be chained one after another (which is why so many ships seem ''invincible'' to you) Tactical team makes all but the most fiercesome anti proton beam overload 3 crit a complete joke, even if your emergency power to shields isn't up at the time. Reverse shield polarity is used as an oh crap button when you have already given away your transfer shield strengths to a team mate and you are almost out of shields. (it's especially useful just after you get sub nucleaonic beamed, and you pop a shield battery with it. Then you can usually save Rotate Shield freq if you are an engineer for the second sub nuc if it's coming and chances are someone's given you a sci team to clear the debuff, and an emergency power is probably also ready at that point) you should always always always if possible have an emergency power to shields up.

And yes you can run two emergency powers at the same time if they are for different subsystems.

When running at the /75 powers I mentioned emergency power 2, is enough to put your shields at full strength, which boosts your shield regen, and it's native damage reduction, it also has the pleasant side effect of almost maxing out your extend shields' damage reduction bonus. While emergency 1 almost kicks everything to capacity as well.

Devices I recommend keeping the following handy. Shield Batteries, (or rechargeable shield battery if you can get one) Weapon Battery, Subspace field modulator, and Aux Battery. Shield Batteries are for when you have been Sub Nucleaonic beamed. This gets your shield power right back up to 125 and gives a small shield heal in the process. For Engies this makes them even more frustrating to kill since often you can then save rotate shield frequency for either being nucced again, or just for use as your shield strength falls to roughly half. For Tacs and Sci it's a straight up life saver. Weapon batteries are to be used when a target is near death (if you aren't using emergency power to weapons1 or if it's cooldown is active), so you can cram that last little bit of DPS into the target to hopefully down it before they can get heals.
Subspace field modulators are good for when you are being focus fired and a shield is near critical, it increases both your damage resistance and your Defense Score, Aux Batteries are for when you are running weapon power bias (ie thats one of your /75s) or for when your EPTA (emergency power to aux1) is off, and you need that -extra- bit of healing to save someone's life.

Don't forget to put Distribute Shield power somewhere you can easily keep hitting it, when the enemy starts attacking you. Most people keybind it to the space bar, but honestly I shield tank worse then I run it there, because it throws off the rhythm of the shield distribution when damage comes in. Sure it's more micro intensive than what most people do, but honestly it pays dividends especially when tac team is on cool down. (and now you all know my secret for shield tanking... I'm doomed)

Also, pay attention to your positioning relative to the other players on your team. Cruisers should either be in the middle where they can put their extend shields outwards, or circling slowly behind the Escorts on the outside edge of combat, and adjust your throttle as you go along. Also, I recommend you move throttle control to the mouse scroll wheel. That lets you pull off fancy moves, like the reverse flat spin which is very difficult if not impossible with the default bind of it being on your keyboard, this also frees up your fingers so they can more easily hit the number rows and keep fighting, or frees up the default throttle keys for staple abilities so you do not have to hunt the keyboard and never leave WASD.

For example when I'm at a buddies place, and I need my sto fix and I forget to take my Razer Naga with me (which really is worth the investment if you plan on playing alot of mmos and rts games) I bind whatever my emergency power to shields is, (third ability, on the top row usually) to Q, and the second emergency power to shields to E.

Speaking of, if you really want to get serious in pvp without springing for a razer naga you might want to consider a keyboard layout different from the standard WASD+ Numbers and start binding various abilities to other keys, like the aformentioned E and Q. Some other good non number keys to bind powers to are also C, X, Z, V and B, just to cite some examples. This means you never leave total control over your ship, while you are hitting powers. Which is one of the reasons the Razer Naga is just so good. All the numbers are on the side of the mouse leaving your other hand free for actually moving about, hitting push to talk keys, firing weapons etc.

I also recommend heavily regardless of what you do for ability activation running the 3 row power tray instead of the default one with the silly pictures of your bridge crew. The default tray is completely useless in pvp, wastes time in searching for abilities, and even worse clutters up your screen. Also, practice using the numbers instead of mouse clicking abilities. It saves your mouse for healing allies then or clicking through enemy targets.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
02-08-2012, 09:53 AM
Distance to target damage dropoff: http://theenginescannaetakeit.wordpr...weapon-ranges/

Re: Putting power to shields:

Increasing power to shields now increases shield damage resistance to any damage. The formula is shield power level divided by 500, so 100% shield power would impart 20% damage resistance.
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...61&postcount=3
On the same topic, plus lots more good info:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=155777


Anyway, you're right about regeneration not being what you need. You need to focus on resists.
http://theenginescannaetakeit.wordpr...shing-returns/

Regarding how to apply damage resistance, check this post on what Aux does, and make sure your power levels are distributed appropriately. For example, pop an Aux battery before you use an Aux dependent power that increases your resists.

For information about how damage resistance works, read this:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=180912

So, I've provided some reading but here are some opinions: 180 firing arc on an AC just tells a pilot to get behind you. It's what I would do. If you insist on keeping them, try Eject Warp Plasma, because that's where they'll be. Even more importantly, if you have a target in front of you, your team may be focusing on a target behind you. If someone calls a target and you keep plinking away because you've only got one person in your arc, you're not helping anyone.

Again, in my opinion, you need to call targets. If nobody on your team is doing it, you need to be the one. You should set up a keybind for this, and for lots of other stuff, too.
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=192243

Maybe I missed it, what type of captain are you playing?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-08-2012, 10:38 AM
Interesting reads. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedRicky View Post
So, I've provided some reading but here are some opinions: 180 firing arc on an AC just tells a pilot to get behind you. It's what I would do.
Of course. But that is no different from arming the ship with 4 phaser beam arrays fore and 4 aft. Then, being behind the cruiser is just as much the best option. Or isn't it?

Of course, I could give the ship turrets, but something tells me that the DPS is even worse then.

Quote:
Maybe I missed it, what type of captain are you playing?
According to my profile pic, Captain Logimo is an Engineer.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-08-2012, 10:39 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo
If I am not mistaken, there is no information available about the 3km limit anywhere. According to the STO Wiki and in-game sources, they just do more DPS than a beam array at the cost of some target arc. They are, as the numbers display themselves to me, a good way to increase front and broadside DPS for a slow-turning ship.

What is your source for the 3km?
Unless the Devs changed the mechanics this has the info you seek.
http://theenginescannaetakeit.wordpr...weapon-ranges/
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
02-08-2012, 10:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo
Interesting reads. Thanks!



Of course. But that is no different from arming the ship with 4 phaser beam arrays fore and 4 aft. Then, being behind the cruiser is just as much the best option. Or isn't it?

Of course, I could give the ship turrets, but something tells me that the DPS is even worse then.



According to my profile pic, Captain Logimo is an Engineer.
In an all beam cruiser you want them in two places.

Left and Right

Behind means 1/2 dps = gone
Infront means 1/2 dps = gone

hence why most escorts use turrets in rear

So they can maximize their forward facing dps.

A good way to show "us" what you are running is to head here

http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/

Fill it out with what you have, skill points also.

That way in-depth responses can be made.

and example of build grabbed off the site

http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skil...canDestroyer_0

on looking at that build I must say. "oh my"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
02-08-2012, 10:50 AM
Cruisers that do dmg do it from the side. Broadsiding like an old Spanish Galleon. Beam arcs will give you a nice wide sweet spot where you can engage both your rear and fore weapons at the same time. You can do the same by using turrets... however keep in mind your dmg will be terrible at range due to cannon drop off. (this is why you will notice most escorts try to hug you... partly is so you can't turn its also party because if they attack at 8k there weapons will do next too nothing)

RedRicky gave you a bunch of good links there... there is some good reading there on weapon types.

Keep in mind that the more weapons you are going to be engaging the more power they are going to drain. Engis can do some moderate burst when they engage there Nadion skill... with there EPS transfer. If you are going to try to broadside though you will want too find room for a EPS engi consul on your ship. This will increase how fast your power returns when your weapons drain it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
02-08-2012, 10:58 AM
I know I also mentioned too you it would be more effective too play your engi as a healer... I do have to stand by that too be honest.

The engi class really is missing a few things the other classes have that allow them to burst... 1 the tactical is much better at providing dmg as there Captain skills increase dmg. (makes sense right) the Sci captain will also be more effective doing dmg in general as they can reduce defense values with sensor scan... and remove there targets buffs with Sub Nuke.

What the engi does Better then ALL the other classes though is heal. Your captain skills give you a one up in survival... making it much much easier for you to share your heals. Once you get a bit better at the basics ect... it will be much easier for you too send your engi team to a friendly or your TSS... or a *cough* extend sheilds (its OP) because if you take dmg you can EPTS + rotate shield freq... and if you really get beat on you have M worker.

You can still however Pop your nadion... and turn your beams on a target in trouble to finish them off ect...

I know you may find the healing role a bit boring... just trying too set you expectations a bit... your engi cruiser is likely NEVER going to be top dmg in any match... and to be honesty your likely not going to put much scare into many properly flown ships with it in terms of dmg... however if heal 500k when the other sides isn't putting out over 100k in dmg each (I have seen so much worse with all the new players lol) you will Win lots of games.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
02-08-2012, 11:10 AM
Oh, it is not a matter of boredom. Is is a matter of both not fighting in a team right now and my very strong impression that you cannot heal away the damage fast enough when the other one is doing 12000 dps or more - because by the time your central nervous system has reallized that you are under attack, your are dead.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
02-08-2012, 11:31 AM
Imo as a engineer frankly you're just better off healing.
Keeping the people doing burst dps alive will be far more helpful than non buffed beams. Heck even "Tactical captain" buffed beams are pretty meh compared to dhc's against someone with a good shield rotation.

If you wanna dps roll a tactical toon and toss him in a escort/bop.
Engy's @ dps you're usually doing nothing more than annoying the target. ->because the targets resistances have pretty nuked your beam damage...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo
Oh, it is not a matter of boredom. Is is a matter of both not fighting in a team right now and my very strong impression that you cannot heal away the damage fast enough when the other one is doing 12000 dps or more
Its about doing a mix of resistance stacking and healing at once + not blowing everything you have in 2 seconds.

Tip:
Keep epts 3 on all the time. In you're situation using it to add shield resists sounds like it would be more helpful than using it as a oh-crap heal.
That way when a bop uncloaks your already reducing his damage to your shields by 30% + what ever your shield power setting gives you...

Read some of the links RedRicky posted.
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