Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 91
02-13-2012, 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu
Day of the Dove, A Question of Honor and Way of the Warrior established Roddenbury's firm view that ethos is a dead end. And I agree.

I think a better way of looking at the Fed-Klingon war is like the World Wars and their relationship with feudalism and militarism - the last death cry of a doomed way of life. The Klingons may balk at serving gagh at novelty restaurants, but they will have to find a way to reconcile their beliefs with cultural progress, or wind up like those angry Balkan states that just don't get it.
We have found a way, through expansion, acquisistion and allying ourselves with similiar like minded cutltures. You speak as if we do not enjoy our own version of what a goverment should function as and that the Klingons live in a depressed state of society enjoyed by only a select few and lamented by the majority.
I assure you such is not the case and the citizen of the Empire enjoy a level of life that falls short in no area to the federation. We have schools, social settings, equality of the sexes and what many claim to be progressive outlooks that existed well ebfore the federation reared its ugly head to us and claimed we were doing it wrong.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 92
02-13-2012, 01:41 PM
(First, I think you're identifying with a fictional culture and/or the faction that your character belongs to in a game wayyy too much. Though maybe you're just taking the ****. I go by what I read.)

A way of life in which conquered "vassals", and anyone who is not a warrior (ENT, "Judgment"), is treated as a lesser? Sure, the Empire's great... if you're a Klingon. Preferably one with ridges.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 93
02-13-2012, 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HF_Mudd
A way of life in which conquered "vassals", and anyone who is not a warrior (ENT, "Judgment"), is treated as a lesser? Sure, the Empire's great... if you're a Klingon. Preferably one with ridges.
And of the warrior "caste" AKA jocks.
I always wondered where all those geeky nerd Klingons went for a nice bloodwine & headbutt. You know those that actually can build a spaceship and not just swing a bathlet competently. :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 94
02-13-2012, 02:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivarST
And of the warrior "caste" AKA jocks.
I always wondered where all those geeky nerd Klingons went for a nice bloodwine & headbutt. You know those that actually can build a spaceship and not just swing a bathlet competently. :p
*Klingon Chess Club*
"King's knight takes pawn."
"Queen's rook takes knight."
"King's bishop takes rook. Check."
"YOU IMPUGN MY HONOR!"
"..."
"..."
"Best two out of three?"
"You're on."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 95
02-13-2012, 03:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexsam View Post
Are you kidding? How many times in that series was the Enterprise caught in a life-or-death situation? Was everything all rainbows and songbirds when Tash Yar died? What about the constant Cold War-esque staring contest with the Romulans? And the Borg. Just the Borg.

TNG was a pretty upbeat series, but it wasn't a peaceful utopian starship doing routine charting missions the whole time. It had its share of conflict.


At least until the next one started, which is my entire point. I imagine you didn't read my closing paragraph*.

*It's also possible I didn't sum it up well enough, either.

At the same time, you get the sense that the stakes weren't nearly as high...

Until the Borg appeared.

Before that point, the characters could afford to be a little dogmatic and arrogant.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 96
02-13-2012, 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CobaltBlueHero View Post
DS9 was as "gritty" as it was because producer Ira Steven Behr pointedly did not like many of the more utopian aspects of TNG Trek life, and sought to re-examine, or even undercut, many of those notions.
Don't forget many of the writers, including Ronald D. Moore.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 97
02-13-2012, 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
Don't forget many of the writers, including Ronald D. Moore.
That's why I like Behr more than Berman or Braga. He's willing to push the envelope, to question Star Trek's ethos, and actually challenge us.

Nothing illustrates this better than the DS9 Episode 'In the Pale Moonlight'.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 98
02-13-2012, 07:26 PM
He doesn't question the ethos, he ignores it. There's a difference.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 99
02-13-2012, 07:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by V-Mink
*Klingon Chess Club*
"King's knight takes pawn."
"Queen's rook takes knight."
"King's bishop takes rook. Check."
"YOU IMPUGN MY HONOR!"
"..."
"..."
"Best two out of three?"
"You're on."
Honor is more or less a shill for lack of personal responsibility.

See: A Question of Honor
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu
This I don't agree with. DS9 was as stereotyped, black-and-white comic book morality as it gets.

Honorable soldiers = good
Vorta and armchair admirals = bad
Male sex drive = bad
Female sex drive = good

Note how the entire moral cadence of the Klingons and Cardassians changes depending on whose side they are fighting on. Note how Sisko sends hundreds of thousands of young men and women to their deaths, but goes out of his way to protect his own family, and curiously nothing bad ever happens to him or any of his bestest friends.

Also note how O'Brien's entire character shifted 180 degrees from how he was portrayed in TNG and early DS9 - from the reluctant soldier who doesn't want anything to do with war, to some guy who spends hours re-enacting the Battle of Britain and Alamo and acting more Maxwell than Maxwell.

DS9 had Styrofoam morality. Superficial =/= ambiguous.
I see...I should get some free master keys for all the times I've had to do this, so here we go:

I can point out the dishonorable soldiers in DS9, led down the path of war by their own lust for battle, power, and foolishness.

Yes, Vorta are bad...because they're supposed to be. They're an example of every slimy middle manager/bureaucratic machine gone wrong...but, did you forget about Weyoun 6? And, DS9 didn't corner the market on "bad" admirals...it also had some good ones in there too.

Seems to me someone has issues with sex in general...gonna let that one lay there, since there's plenty of examples of good and bad sexuality for whatever gender you want to look at in DS9.

The Klingons and Cardassians shift depending on who they're fighting, and when...kinda of like the U.S. shifted its stance on Asians, Germans, etc. in the course of its wars...or are you forgetting yellow journalism, freedom fries, and internment camps on American soil?

Sisko's son makes very stupid mistakes that any young person would make seeking the thrill/glamor/excitement of war and adventure. Bashir is a POW only saved after Worf/Martok get the snot beat out of them and Garak nearly goes insane in a botched attempt to rescue Inabrin Tain from his botched attempt at genocide with the Romulans against the Dominon. Terribly uni-dimension that.

So, you mean they filled out O'Brien's character and had him grow and change his opinions on some things as he got married, had children, etc...and you're calling him out for being a gamer? Sorry, I wasn't aware we were playing Farmville here, and I'm sure there are plenty of current/retired members of our armed forces who enjoy this game.

As one of my grandfathers (who fought in WWII) used to say...nothing worse than a man with a paper rectum...or someone who makes specious arguments about a Trek series he very obviously dislikes.

Bitter bandwagon of DS9 haters, your reservation for table of one is waiting.
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