Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 141
02-14-2012, 06:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
Klingon Honor is more like the Feudal Japanese Samurai Code of Bushido than modern American concepts of honor.
  • If you fail and die, then you are remembered fondly, as all know you literally gave your life trying to accomplish your duty.
  • If you fail and live, then you have obviously held back and so failed to do your best.
  • If you succeed and die, then you gave your life in order to accomplish your duty, and no man can speak ill of you for that.
  • If you succeed and live, then you have proven yourself truly a skilled Warrior, and are held in the highest esteem.
And in practice it almost never worked out like that.
Mortal nature trumps some idealized notion of honor every time.

When the penalties for the realities of life - such as weakness and failure - are made extreme, people will simply seek to disguise those realities.

Then what you have, is a totally dysfunctional and ineffective system that ultimately becomes its own antithesis. The honor code does not serve to uphold honor itself - quite the contrary.

Anyone who has ever dealt with these traditional cultures (and some do endure to this day, in the Middle and Far East, and also in some parts of Central Asia - even in some parts of the rural Mediterranean) that still practice honor codes knows this. They will expound the most preposterous lies, because if you challenge their lies, you are challenging their honor, their family's honor, the honor of the friends and allies of their family, and they now all have license to avenge that disgrace by any means...so instead, you have to accept the lies, and muddle along as best you can.

It was also true in Japanese history, even during World War II. The battleship Yamato has been reconceived into some sort of invincible juggernaut, the cream of the Japanese Navy. In reality, the ship barely left port and spent most of the war in dock for circuitous changes in configuration, because the Japanese felt that if they risked it...and lost...it would not only be a major military and propaganda defeat, but it would call into question the very moral and spiritual essence of the nation. Again, "honor" and extreme warrior ideals serve to hamstring courage in practice.

Or the Japanese myth of the ninja. Ninjas were originally rural bandits who knew the lay of the land and could flout feudal authority with relative impunity. When the samurai went out to challenge them and got their butts kicked, they claimed the ninjas had magic powers and secret arts that enabled them to overcome the honorable warriors. The alternative would have been accepting they were beaten fair and square, with totally impractical consequences. They did the same thing during the war, documenting mistruthful and superstitious accounts of losing encounters.

The West has had similar learning experiences...Roman soldiers versus Gaul warriors (who also practiced similar, and equally self-defeating, codes of personal honor), for example, or how the feudal code of chivalry degenerated rapidly into hypocrisy, petty self-interest and ruthless exploitation of peasants.

The big picture is, this is why honor codes have pretty much died out in successful civilizations. Because they are a counter-adaptive cultural trait. Because they actually discourage real honor and courage, things every successful civilization needs.

In this respect, the portrayal of the Klingon Empire at the close of DS9 and opening of STO is plausible and the logical and inevitable result of such an ideology. As Dax pointed out, "This is a culture deep in self-denial".
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 142
02-14-2012, 07:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
The great great great great great great great grandson of Charlton Heston starts handing out those firearms he had hidden in the basement to all his up-until-the-moment-happened pacifist nieghbors.
Millions of Star Wars fans are caught unaware of the invasion thinking its the lastest George Lucas release in Uber-mega 3-D.
Somewhere a Klingon conspiracy thoerist fan on life support and many organ transplants laughs once haughtedly then dies.
Then the planet goes PoP after a bunch of screaming?
More or less, yeah

The point is valid though. We (rational people that is) ALL want peace, but there is a price for peace, someone, somewhere has to remain vigilant, someone has to be prepared to to sacrifice HIS peace so that the rest may enjoy it.

Ok, Alderaan might be a bad example, self defense fleet or not, I doubt they were stopping the Deathstar (after all it DOES have Death incorportated right into the name). BUT, a Borg cube, or in fact any enemy, would meet heavy resistance before it reached the heart of the federation, and they don't make Cubes like they used to.


Although, there was one flaw in that whole theory, remember the Episode of DS9, where the Breen magically went to Earth and F'ed everything up? They never quite explained that one, the Breen take back roads or something?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 143
02-14-2012, 07:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfessorSTAFF
Star Trek has always been about hope, and optimism, progress and peace.
For whom?
  • Have you ever asked yourself how all of the Earth's sovereign nations in the future ended up under Starfleet's control, conveniently headquartered in San Francisco, USA?

  • Have you ever wondered why everyone on Earth has agreed to use the "U.S.S." designation on their ships?

  • Have you ever pondered why virtually any faction in Star Trek, capable of defeating Starfleet, ends up being the "bad guys" in the franchise?

Marina Sirtis, sounding half-drunk, once asked a question about Star Trek: "Why is it that all the aliens are humanoid?". Good question, Marina.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 144
02-14-2012, 07:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkshadow9498
More or less, yeah

The point is valid though. We (rational people that is) ALL want peace, but there is a price for peace, someone, somewhere has to remain vigilant, someone has to be prepared to to sacrifice HIS peace so that the rest may enjoy it.

Ok, Alderaan might be a bad example, self defense fleet or not, I doubt they were stopping the Deathstar (after all it DOES have Death incorportated right into the name). BUT, a Borg cube, or in fact any enemy, would meet heavy resistance before it reached the heart of the federation, and they don't make Cubes like they used to.


Although, there was one flaw in that whole theory, remember the Episode of DS9, where the Breen magically went to Earth and F'ed everything up? They never quite explained that one, the Breen take back roads or something?
They snuck in onboard a galactic tour bus posing as pakled tourists and where very far along in their before eventually discovered.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 145
02-14-2012, 08:54 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJRjXFy_onw

Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its continuing mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before.

Too often people over analyze things to death. Problem is often the best thing to remember is the simplest things of all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 146
02-14-2012, 09:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo-Sparta
For whom?
  • Have you ever asked yourself how all of the Earth's sovereign nations in the future ended up under Starfleet's control, conveniently headquartered in San Francisco, USA?
  • Have you ever wondered why everyone on Earth has agreed to use the "U.S.S." designation on their ships?
  • Have you ever pondered why virtually any faction in Star Trek, capable of defeating Starfleet, ends up being the "bad guys" in the franchise?

Marina Sirtis, sounding half-drunk, once asked a question about Star Trek: "Why is it that all the aliens are humanoid?". Good question, Marina.
#1 Perhaps, since the sovereign nations blew themselves off the map in WW3 they finally got tired of dying or simply didn't exist anymore. As for the city of Starfleet HQ there is the possibility San Francisco might just have been one of the last cities left with enough functional infrastructure to cling to, the city choice is hard to say. BUT do not forget the Federation is based out of France not the USA. And to go ahead and answer the next question, the Humans did the majority of the work to put the federation together,

#2 in Star Trek it does not mean United States Ship it means United Star Ship Which in the end really doesn't mean much, beside S.F.S. StarFleet Ship looks silly:p

#3 "Bad" is such a generic term, and really in this case used in a very shallow manner. To date the only species in Star Trek with no redeeming qualities are the Borg. Before the STO writers needlessly dredged up Plotdevice 8472 (Undine) they had decided to leave well enough alone and went back to their home space where they could have stayed forever and it would have been fantastic.

Bonus Answer, as for Drunk Marina, no matter how much you want to argue this or that conspiracy Star Trek was still a tv show, and humans in various forms of make up played the cast members. Ms Sirtis your "Good Question" is answered by one simple word "Budget" In the Star Trek universe, canon, extended, or otherwise there are plenty of non-humanoids that exist, granted they do not get as much face time, but they are there.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 147
02-14-2012, 10:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstahl View Post
Having recently rewatched Carl Sagan's Cosmos TV series, it was interesting to see how the commentary of the show highlighted the tensions of the Cold War. I'd speculate that TV and other media throught history has echoed the state of global affairs at the time it was written. While combat and conflict does help with the fun nature of flying a massive Starship around where you can fire your phaser banks and torpedoes, the conflict within STO may also be a subconscious reflection of our view of humanity at this hour.

Great thread btw...
The Great Bird of the Galaxy once stated that TOS was basically wagontrain in space, akin to some of the old western serials of the time but with a twist, hence cowboy diplomacy. The beauty of it all, is that TOS really did reflect the times, it was in essence, a product of its time.

Does STO reflect the chaotic times we live in? Perhaps, or perhaps not. In and of itself, its a game that is built on creating an enviroment that tailors, first to a genre or theme that will invoke folks to challenge each other, and second, forces the player to invest in continued conflict.

Can an MMO be constructed or buit upon the principles of exploration and encounters?

“Peace is not the absence of conflict but the presence of creative alternatives for responding to conflict -- alternatives to passive or aggressive responses, alternatives to violence.”
― Dorothy Thompson

“In the animal kingdom, the rule is, eat or be eaten; in the human kingdom, define or be defined.”
― Thomas Stephen Szasz


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollywog View Post
I was playing as a KDF once and after interrogating the captain of a captured Starfleet ship, one of my officers killed the UNARMED man. I was shocked and could not believe it. I thought KDF officers were supposed to be honorable.

Something like that makes one think and thinking is a good thing.
Captain Kirk once stated during the Kobayashi Maru examination:

"Prayer, Mister Saavik. The Klingons don't take prisoners... " - Admiral James T. Kirk

In the Klingon culture, surrendering is viewed as a sign of cowardice and is considered a dishonor. A Warrior must die an honorable death, to be denied so, is viewed as the greatest of offenses.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 148
02-15-2012, 12:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo-Sparta
For whom?
  • Have you ever asked yourself how all of the Earth's sovereign nations in the future ended up under Starfleet's control, conveniently headquartered in San Francisco, USA?

  • Have you ever wondered why everyone on Earth has agreed to use the "U.S.S." designation on their ships?

  • Have you ever pondered why virtually any faction in Star Trek, capable of defeating Starfleet, ends up being the "bad guys" in the franchise?

Marina Sirtis, sounding half-drunk, once asked a question about Star Trek: "Why is it that all the aliens are humanoid?". Good question, Marina.
Because Star Trek is drama first and foremost, and the entire point of Star Trek is to portray the ultimate development of the best of our cultural values.

"Why is Starfleet headquartered in San Francisco." Why not Virginia? Why not DC? Why not Moscow? Because San Francisco is one of the most cosmopolitan cities on earth, that's why. You see more people, from more backgrounds, of more viewpoints, doing more to think outside the box, than anywhere else on Earth.

And where is the Federation headquartered? Paris. Why? Because it's one of the most progressive-minded and humanist cities on earth. It's where the French Revolution began. It's where the Age of Enlightenment began. It's a city where people think about how to live better lives, not how to make a zillion dollars or conquer the world.

That is the reason. Satisfactory to you?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 149
02-15-2012, 12:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu
Because Star Trek is drama first and foremost, and the entire point of Star Trek is to portray the ultimate development of the best of our cultural values.

"Why is Starfleet headquartered in San Francisco." Why not Virginia? Why not DC? Why not Moscow? Because San Francisco is one of the most cosmopolitan cities on earth, that's why. You see more people, from more backgrounds, of more viewpoints, doing more to think outside the box, than anywhere else on Earth.
Actually its because Hollywood is stationed there :p

Almost every movie, TV series, and serial is a California production via Hollywood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu
And where is the Federation headquartered? Paris. Why? Because it's one of the most progressive-minded and humanist cities on earth. It's where the French Revolution began. It's where the Age of Enlightenment began. It's a city where people think about how to live better lives, not how to make a zillion dollars or conquer the world.

That is the reason. Satisfactory to you?
Paris - because they invented French Toast - the best thing since slice bread

(NOTE: French toast was not invented by the French - just making a joke)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 150
02-15-2012, 03:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkshadow9498
More or less, yeah

The point is valid though. We (rational people that is) ALL want peace, but there is a price for peace, someone, somewhere has to remain vigilant, someone has to be prepared to to sacrifice HIS peace so that the rest may enjoy it.

Ok, Alderaan might be a bad example, self defense fleet or not, I doubt they were stopping the Deathstar (after all it DOES have Death incorportated right into the name). BUT, a Borg cube, or in fact any enemy, would meet heavy resistance before it reached the heart of the federation, and they don't make Cubes like they used to.


Although, there was one flaw in that whole theory, remember the Episode of DS9, where the Breen magically went to Earth and F'ed everything up? They never quite explained that one, the Breen take back roads or something?
That only happened because 95% of what was left of Starfleet was on the front lines fighting to take back DS9 and the Wormhole before the Dominion reinforcements could come thru I believe. It's been awhile since I watched any DS9.

The reason for this was because the Klingon's....in typical Klingon fashion were throwing a hissy fit because they were not getting their way or some such non-sense.

Plus it was a total surprise attack. The Federation had no clue at that point that the Breen had allied with the Dominion, so the attack came from a totally unexpected and unforeseen direction.
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