Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Star Trek: It's a Faaaaake!!!
02-15-2012, 10:39 AM
"In the Pale Moonlight"

Apparently, it's acceptable for Starfleet to forge evidence and to murder a foreign senator in a terrorist act to drag another faction into a war but somehow they are the "good guys"? All it took is a little drama scene with Garak and repeating "I CAN live with it!" a couple of times, and all is jolly good. Hell, why even have a captain's log when you can just delete it.

You say Garak did it? What did Sisko think was going to happen if Vreenak believed the forgery and lived? Romulan soldiers would now have to die in a war based on a lie. Now you have a mass murder, anyway.

Does Starfleet send its soldiers to die for the Romulans when they are at war with someone, if that someone is the aggressor? Oh wait, you have to be a member of the United Federation of Planets in order for Starfleet to act. How inconvenient it must have been that they didn't want to join the Romulan Star Empire for them to intervene.

The episode keeps showing the casualty list in the wardroom in order to invoke anger in a viewer. The names are blurry but in this and another episode "The Siege of AR-558" you can just barely make out two ship names that keep repeating. They are the U.S.S. Wyoming and U.S.S. Tennessee. Would the non-American casualties be more acceptable to Sisko? Apparently, they would, since he COULD live with it.

The most obvious comparison comes to mind is when Hitler burned Reichstag and blamed it on communists in an attempt to start a war.

Clearly, Star Trek is about peace, exploration, protecting the weak, and, let me guess... democracy!

Double standards.
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 2
02-15-2012, 10:53 AM
thats kind of the point of the episode. he lied, cheated and murdered but for the sake of billions he can live with it.

he drew the romulans into a war and that was not morally right but he probably saved the klingons the feds and also the romulans in the process. if the feds and klingons had fallen then the romulans would have been surrounded by the dominion. im not sure the founders would have forgiven them for trying to bomb their homeworld back in season 3.

the dominion conquered cardassia, albeit through a slightly different tactic but they ultimately paid the price with 800 million killed at the end of the war. the romulans would have faired no better.
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# 3
02-15-2012, 10:54 AM
More importantly, what Deep Space Nine and the Dominion War arch were about was the weakness of the human spirit. Sisko for all intents and purposes acted alone, none of the other Starfleet Officers were let it on his plot to draw the Romulans into the war.

You mention Starfleet getting involved in Romulan wars or tactical engagements as an ally. The issue with this is that in this case, the Dominion promised to be a very real threat to not just the Federation, or the Klingon Empire... but also to the Romulans, and assorted other Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers.

Consider this, if you will from a Romulan perspective:

Quote:
First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Were Sisko's actions illegal and flying in the face of Federation law, virtue and honor? Absolutely.

I feel Garak said it best however
Quote:
"That's why you came to me, isn't it captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing. Well, it worked. And you'll get what you wanted: a war between the Romulans and the Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, and all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal... and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain."
This is one of my favorite episodes from Deep Space Nine... because at the end of the day the Federation isn't as far removed from us as a culture as we thought- and it opened up an entirely new dimension to the character of Ben Sisko.
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# 4
02-15-2012, 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Revo
thats kind of the point of the episode. he lied, cheated and murdered but for the sake of billions he can live with it.
I don't think he can. The more he said, "I can live with it... I CAN," the less he sounded like he believed it, shifting in his seat, even his words changed from "I can live with it" to "I can learn to live with it" and the fourth, last time, it was a question, not a statement. That's why he deleted the log. He couldn't justify it to himself, let alone to Starfleet, who'd given the entire debacle their blessing, he rejected his own justifications.
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# 5
02-15-2012, 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post
I don't think he can. The more he said, "I can live with it... I CAN," the less he sounded like he believed it. That's why he deleted the log. He couldn't justify it to himself, let alone to Starfleet, who'd given the entire debacle their blessing, he rejected his own justifications.
i think he deleted it because thats not the kind of incriminating evidence you leave around.

perhaps he was trying to justify it to himself or not, but ultimately as we never heard about this issue ever again, i guess he did live with it.
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# 6
02-15-2012, 11:12 AM
Wars over falsified information happen all the time. Politics in a time of war are full of these kinds of gambles. I don’t doubt for a second that had the war ended in a stalemate or the terms of peace were to give up DS9 the Alliance would be fighting some pretty serious war crimes allegations within itself, Sisko’s gamble included. But victory often leads people to forget these things, especially if by the end you agree you picked the right side.

To be clear, Sisko isn’t saying he can live with “it” where “it” is the death of Romulans, he’s saying the same thing Spock said to Kirk, he believes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few in this case. Let’s be frank, you really believe the Romulans could have held their own against the Dominion? What if the Dominion now controlled the entire Klingon and Federation Empire? You are talking about deciding between the deaths of thousands of Romulan soldiers vs. billions of Romulan civilians. Which would you choose?
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# 7
02-15-2012, 11:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Revo
i think he deleted it because thats not the kind of incriminating evidence you leave around.

perhaps he was trying to justify it to himself or not, but ultimately as we never heard about this issue ever again, i guess he did live with it.
Yeah, it was a bitter pill to swallow for Sisko. He was ashamed of what he did, but let's face it... that one act of deception likely saved the the war effort. He was finally vindicated by war's end. So yes, while he was struggling to cope with his own acts... by the end of the series he had buried it, and been vindicated in general.
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# 8
02-15-2012, 11:18 AM
and lets not pretend the romulans, the cardassians or the dominion would have not done exactly the same thing. the only difference is they would have not agonised over it.
Lt. Commander
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# 9
02-15-2012, 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo-Sparta
"In the Pale Moonlight"

Apparently, it's acceptable for Starfleet to forge evidence and to murder a foreign senator in a terrorist act to drag another faction into a war but somehow they are the "good guys"? All it took is a little drama scene with Garak and repeating "I CAN live with it!" a couple of times, and all is jolly good. Hell, why even have a captain's log when you can just delete it.

You say Garak did it? What did Sisko think was going to happen if Vreenak believed the forgery and lived? Romulan soldiers would now have to die in a war based on a lie. Now you have a mass murder, anyway.

Does Starfleet send its soldiers to die for the Romulans when they are at war with someone, if that someone is the aggressor? Oh wait, you have to be a member of the United Federation of Planets in order for Starfleet to act. How inconvenient it must have been that they didn't want to join the Romulan Star Empire for them to intervene.

The episode keeps showing the casualty list in the wardroom in order to invoke anger in a viewer. The names are blurry but in this and another episode "The Siege of AR-558" you can just barely make out two ship names that keep repeating. They are the U.S.S. Wyoming and U.S.S. Tennessee. Would the non-American casualties be more acceptable to Sisko? Apparently, they would, since he COULD live with it.

The most obvious comparison comes to mind is when Hitler burned Reichstag and blamed it on communists in an attempt to start a war.

Clearly, Star Trek is about peace, exploration, protecting the weak, and, let me guess... democracy!

Double standards.
As has been mentioned, the point of the episode is that what Sisko did was "Wrong" but he did it to save billions. As Spock said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".

As for "Non-American" casualties...? I have no idea what you mean. In Star Trek there were no "Americans", it was just a place on a map.

(Also, the Federation approved his plan. Therefore, the log is not incriminating evidence. Also, it was his personal log, not the Captain's log)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
02-15-2012, 11:35 AM
OP your looking way to into this.

1. Only Sisko, and Garek knew about it. Star Fleet had nothing to do with it. this was all under the table. Sisko made a choice to do evil to stop a bigger evil. Star Fleet didn't do it, and Sisko felt guilty about it too. until he realized that the ends out weighted the means. What he did was wrong and not moral. he knew that. but in the end it was his choice to do evil to stop evil, and all it cost was one criminal, one corrupt senator, and the self respect of Ben Sisko himself. I agree with Garek. It was a hell of a bargain, and honestly if I was faced with the same choice. I am not sure I would do anything different.

If I were you OP. I would check out two videos.
The First is a review of the episode
The second is a follow up on sisko's actions

They give you very interesting in site into it.


Also this whole thing about being two ships on the list. Your thinking to much into it. It is called laziness... it was a back ground prop.. I mean sure they should have had more names. but they didn't because they are saving time. your thinking to much into it.

One other thing. it is silly to think that just because it is an American state named, means it is an American crew. thats just silly. If anything it is a multi species crew from all around the universe. It's not just humans or Americans. honestly that is just looking for a reason to complain. Your thinking to much into it.
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