Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
02-15-2012, 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle21davdson
(Also, the Federation approved his plan. Therefore, the log is not incriminating evidence. Also, it was his personal log, not the Captain's log)
It could be incriminating. I refer to how Kirk's personal log was used against him in his trial in ST VI. Sisko was right to cover up anything that could be traced back to him. What would have happened if his log fell into the hands of the Dominion during the war? The Romulans might have pulled out of the alliance, maybe even allied with the Dominion against the Federation..
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
02-16-2012, 07:33 PM
Just like the Federation; all circling the wagons so to speak

To justify actions which they condemn other soceities for.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
02-16-2012, 09:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo-Sparta
"In the Pale Moonlight"

Apparently, it's acceptable for Starfleet to forge evidence and to murder a foreign senator in a terrorist act to drag another faction into a war but somehow they are the "good guys"? All it took is a little drama scene with Garak and repeating "I CAN live with it!" a couple of times, and all is jolly good. Hell, why even have a captain's log when you can just delete it.

You say Garak did it? What did Sisko think was going to happen if Vreenak believed the forgery and lived? Romulan soldiers would now have to die in a war based on a lie. Now you have a mass murder, anyway.

Does Starfleet send its soldiers to die for the Romulans when they are at war with someone, if that someone is the aggressor? Oh wait, you have to be a member of the United Federation of Planets in order for Starfleet to act. How inconvenient it must have been that they didn't want to join the Romulan Star Empire for them to intervene.

The episode keeps showing the casualty list in the wardroom in order to invoke anger in a viewer. The names are blurry but in this and another episode "The Siege of AR-558" you can just barely make out two ship names that keep repeating. They are the U.S.S. Wyoming and U.S.S. Tennessee. Would the non-American casualties be more acceptable to Sisko? Apparently, they would, since he COULD live with it.

The most obvious comparison comes to mind is when Hitler burned Reichstag and blamed it on communists in an attempt to start a war.

Clearly, Star Trek is about peace, exploration, protecting the weak, and, let me guess... democracy!

Double standards.
That's what made DS9 great: it threw off the shackles of Gene Roddenberry's childish naiveté (which was uplifting in the sixties but revolting in modern times, as evidenced by TNG's unwatchable first season) and dealt with adult subjects like ethics and morality in war, terrorism, theology, etc.

And what is this random dig about Americans? Because the ships were named after states, that means they were entirely occupied by Americans? That makes no sense.

Nothing in your post makes sense.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
02-16-2012, 09:12 PM
I suggest you read the DS9 book "Hollow men" it follows up on the events of that episode.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
02-16-2012, 09:17 PM
I almost took this thread seriously, then I got to the part about "non-America casualites". If you're so quick to make sensational accusations and assume all the casualties were American just because some ships are named after American States, I'm forced to consider the possibility that you put just as much thought into the first part of the post.

That being, not very much thought at all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
02-16-2012, 11:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprint01
I feel Garak said it best however

Quote:
"That's why you came to me, isn't it captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing. Well, it worked. And you'll get what you wanted: a war between the Romulans and the Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, and all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal... and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain."
Thanks Sprint01 for quoting Garak, those lines brought chills down my spine when I first saw that episode. Awesome episode.

That particular episode really brought into the light the flaw of the human nature, as well as during a state of war, the tough decisions one must make to end the war quickly, while saving million if not billions of lives.

During World War II, the U.S. Government had to make the tough decision to strike at the heart of emperialistic Japan to end the war quickly. It was very sad they had to use a weapon of mass destruction in order to save lives. The U.S. made this hard decision because they knew if they attacked the mainland head on, it would mean death on every doorstep, for every inch of soil, and the fact that the innocent would be caught in the wake.

That particular DS9 Episode truly calls into question one's morality in time of war. Very tough episode to swallow.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
02-17-2012, 12:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo-Sparta

Does Starfleet send its soldiers to die for the Romulans when they are at war with someone, if that someone is the aggressor? Oh wait, you have to be a member of the United Federation of Planets in order for Starfleet to act. How inconvenient it must have been that they didn't want to join the Romulan Star Empire for them to intervene.
You're making assumptions. In truth, if the Romulans were to petition the Federation for assistance, I'm pretty sure that the (Non-state) U.S.S. Enterprise would be first in line along with the U.S.S. Gorkon, U.S.S. Cairo, U.S.S. Defiant and every other Federation vessel (regardless of the name) would come to their aide. Unfortunately; The Romulan Senate is very mistrusting of other races and have always opposed not only the Federation, but other races including the Klingon Empire.

Speaking of which - you forgot about how Captain Sulu offered to assist the Klingons when half the moon of Praxis blew to a billion of pieces - we're talking about Klingons (A tough customer to please)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo-Sparta
The episode keeps showing the casualty list in the wardroom in order to invoke anger in a viewer. The names are blurry but in this and another episode "The Siege of AR-558" you can just barely make out two ship names that keep repeating. They are the U.S.S. Wyoming and U.S.S. Tennessee. Would the non-American casualties be more acceptable to Sisko? Apparently, they would, since he COULD live with it.
Again you are assuming too much. Sisko had many non-EARTHLYING friends that were killed during the Klingon war. A Klingon warrior even bragged about killing Sisko's Benzite friend. In late 2372, the Klingons boarded Laporin's starship during a bloody skirmish. The boarding party was merciless to Laporin's crew, as Laporin witnessed a Klingon behead his Tellarite helmsman. Moments later, the same Klingon tore off Laporin's breathing tubes, killing the captain.
- "Apocalypse Rising"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo-Sparta
The most obvious comparison comes to mind is when Hitler burned Reichstag and blamed it on communists in an attempt to start a war.
One's morals are always put to the test during times of war. Is it despicable? Yes, and while Hitler was the obvious aggressor, Sisko was not. In Sisko's moment of moral crisis he had to make the hard decision to bring a faction into the war that was apathetic to the Jem hedar's attempt to oppress the Alpha Quadrant. - the two examples are worlds apart.

It is sin to deceive, but far greater are the sins of those who stand idly by while those around them are destroyed. Those who do not act, are as equally guilty as those who oppress and destroy. If the U.S. had acted sooner, Hitler would have never gotten as far as he did.

One is motivated by pure evil with an attempt to undermine another government or supporters of a particular political stance, while the latter was a moral decision based on desepration and instinct to survive. This really opens up the question as to when does morals fade admist extreme conflict?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo-Sparta
Clearly, Star Trek is about peace, exploration, protecting the weak, and, let me guess... democracy!

Double standards.
Perhaps, but who are you to judge? We all have some form of double standard, if it were not so, then we would be prefect in our ways. Is democracy that evil?

Compared to most of earth's political ideology, democracy seems to be the favored in regards to having some form of freedom, at least in appearance.

Without turning this thread into a political science course, many nations today are under different types of governments. Sure, many of these nations feel that the U.S. is evil - and at times they have some logical reasoning behind that notion, but they also at times seem to miss the entire mark.

Communism? is it evil or good? --> lets not turn this into a philosophical course on what is really good and evil.

I tend to think that I favor a government that oppresses their people less. The more oppression from the government, the less favorable the government. To my knowledge the Romulan Star Empire is a symbol of tyranny to the max. Heck at least the Klingon Empire hides it under the notion of Honor.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
02-17-2012, 12:21 AM
Another thing to note was that the Romulans were sitting on the side lines watching all of their rivals weaken each other, hoping they'd be left almost defenseless at the end of the war. As Sloan would later reference, after the Dominion War was over only the Romulan Star Empire and the Federation would be in a position to oppose each other.

When you consider how the Romulans view the Federation (in particular humans, as Orum mentioned that they're raised to hate us) then you begin to see that the Dominion would have been the least of the quadrant's problems by the very end. Still, with Romulus gone I guess we won't be worrying too much about the empire for a long time to come.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
02-17-2012, 12:27 AM
i went through my old DS9 VHS collection again last night just to watch this again...

...and then i watched it again...

...and again.

i had genuinely forgot just how driven the captain was during the war and how much he was willing to stretch his moral fibre in order to safeguard the Federation but i have to consider a few quite serious things that SHOULD have been shot down by Starfleet before it ever became a moral choice.

* Starfleet officers are by extension of there basic training are aloud to "bend" the truth but Sisko flat out lied on no more than four specific occasions in order to facilitate and perpetuate the bringing of another government into a war they had no real reason to involve themselves in at all.

* Sisko then chose to moralise his decision in a personal log, this would despite being deleted without purging the system leave a data trace that could be recovered and used as evidence of subterfuge that could have led not only to the Romulan government from withdrawing from the war but could have seen them joining the Dominion against the rest of the Alpha Quadrant.

* Sisko then chose to take his frustration out on Garrack, a civilian who Sisko brought in as a consultant based on the mans experience as a counter insurgent agent with a more than dubious past and a somewhat flexible moral compass who out of nothing more than simply being requested by someone he considered a friend or at least a comrade to put his considerable skills to the task of manipulating an entire species into entering a war. After following his request to the letter, foreseeing its failings and then understanding what the outcome of the forgery's discovery would mean chose to implement additional measures in order to confirm its success....
...then Sisko pucnhes the poor smuck out in his own damn shop.

gratitude eh? gotta love it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
02-17-2012, 12:54 AM
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies. ~Alecto
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:53 PM.