Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
02-16-2012, 07:48 PM
If by "serious issues" you mean "some nameless NPCs are being held captive for some unknown reason in spacious, well lit conditions", and if by "deal with" you mean "sneak in and shoot the alleged kidnappers in the back before trying to reason with them or finding out what is going on"....

Then yes, we "deal with" "serious issues" all the time.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
02-16-2012, 07:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
Yes, to all.



[*]Worker rights and labor unions
  • see first "diplomatic" mission in main Fed Storyline on the mining colony.
[/list]The list goes on.
Seriously DK, I remember this mission. Do you really want to argue that it approaches the issue with a level of sophistication and nuance, as seen in some Trek episodes? You interview folks to answer a quiz about whether their holodeck is working and what not.

Do you hold the writing quality of this worker's rights dilemma up to Trek, as a TV show? It compares to Sisko's intervention in a workers' riot?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
02-16-2012, 07:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkfat View Post
Gee, I probably need to play the game all over again. Can you specify as to what makes these missions thoughtful and provocative, in comparison with episodes of Star Trek? Yes, I guess I should replay them to understand.

How do they compare with Star Trek's attempts to deal with the same issues?
That wasn't the original question.

The original questions were:
Quote:
  1. Can you name 1 mission in this game that thoughtfully, provocatively, and intelligently deals with a serious issue that relates to our world, our past, or our future?
  2. Beyond just the realities of war, territory, etc., is there a Cryptic mission that deals with a serious issue, in the way that the television shows attempted to do?
  3. Can you name a featured episode the "stood for something," advocated an argument about "inane human rights," or generally put forth some kind of "point of view
You defined the questions as merely dealing with "serious issues" or doing so "thoughtfully, provocatively, and intelligently"--not that any of these missions do a better job.

I'd argue that the portrayal of minority groups and self-determination toward national identity during the Romulan Featured series is better done than most heavy-handed Prime Directive episodes.

I also disagree with the presumption that the trivial is not serious or political in nature.

One could read Slavenka Drakulic's How We Survived Communism and Even Laughed and easily see that day-to-day life and things as seemingly innocuous to Westerners as cosmetics and sanitary napkins can be resistance to the State.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkfat View Post
Seriously DK, I remember this mission. Do you really want to argue that it approaches the issue with a level of sophistication and nuance, as seen in some Trek episodes? You interview folks to answer a quiz about whether their holodeck is working and what not.

Do you hold the writing quality of this worker's rights dilemma up to Trek, as a TV show? It compares to Sisko's intervention in a workers' riot?
You didn't ask whether one is better than the other in the OP, Kirkfat.

You only asked if missions did so "thoughtfully, provocatively, and intelligently" but did not stipulate whether they had to do so better than the TV Series.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
02-16-2012, 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
That wasn't the original question.

The original questions were:

You defined the questions as merely dealing with "serious issues" or doing so "thoughtfully, provocatively, and intelligently"--not that any of these missions do a better job.

I'd argue that the portrayal of minority groups and self-determination toward national identity during the Romulan Featured series is better done than most heavy-handed Prime Directive episodes.

I also disagree with the presumption that the trivial is not serious or political in nature.

One could read Slavenka Drakulic's How We Survived Communism and Even Laughed and easily see that day-to-day life and things as seemingly innocuous to Westerners as cosmetics and sanitary napkins can be resistance to the State.

But it seems like the same question to me. I asked what makes these attempts thoughtful and provocative?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
02-16-2012, 07:58 PM
As far as I know there is only one mission in the whole game that actually looks at issues in this way.

It was a patrol mission, I can't even remember the system or the Sector block. Though I'm pretty sure it's romulan.

It's the one where you have to help a ferengi purchase a Vulcan Love Slave program by negotiating with it's 'owner' also a Hologram. When you finally convince the 'owner' to let the Ferengi have it he gives you a peel about how even though the Vulcan Love slave is very limited in it's programming that people still need to take care of it emotionally. All it wants to do is to please it's owner and the owner needs to deal with it not as if it's an object but as if it's a living being.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
02-16-2012, 08:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkfat View Post
But it seems like the same question to me. I asked what makes these attempts thoughtful and provocative?
That wasn't your original question either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkfat View Post

Close-Ended Question:
Can you name 1 mission in this game that thoughtfully, provocatively, and intelligently deals with a serious issue that relates to our world, our past, or our future?

Close-Ended Question:
Beyond just the realities of war, territory, etc., is there a Cryptic mission that deals with a serious issue, in the way that the television shows attempted to do?

Close-Ended Question:
Can you name a featured episode the "stood for something," advocated an argument about "inane human rights," or generally put forth some kind of "point of view"?
None of these ask to rate STO's missions as better than Trek episodes and none of these were open-ended questions.

As for why I found the questions of national identity and self-determination well-done in the Romulan series (on a level more nuanced and less culturally imperialistic than "Friday's Child"):
1) More options are given and those objections stated than in Friday's Child.

2) The portrayal of the Reman as morally ambiguous (and having cultural values that conflict with the Federation's) and without clear "good guys" shows more depth than many "low-hanging fruit" narratives in Star Trek with clear victims and clear aggressors (admittedly, the shows became more nuanced after TOS-era; esp. DS9).
Even with you moving the goalposts and changing what your questions mean, I'd argue that several stories easily outshine some of the weaker (even classic) Star Trek episodes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
02-16-2012, 08:06 PM
But DK, I asked if these missions compared to Star Trek, plain and simple. Whether one is better than the other is implicit in the question. If they can be compared, then they approach the same level of thoughtfulness and quality. If there is no comparison, then there is no comparison: A crucial part of Trek is missing from the game, entirely.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
02-16-2012, 08:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
That wasn't your original question either.

None of these ask to rate STO's missions as better than Trek episodes and none of these were open-ended questions.

As for why I found the questions of national identity and self-determination well-done in the Romulan series (on a level more nuanced and less culturally imperialistic than "Friday's Child"):
1) More options are given and those objections stated than in Friday's Child.

2) The portrayal of the Reman as morally ambiguous (and having cultural values that conflict with the Federation's) and without clear "good guys" shows more depth than many "low-hanging fruit" narratives in Star Trek with clear victims and clear aggressors (admittedly, the shows became more nuanced after TOS-era; esp. DS9).
Even with you moving the goalposts and changing what your questions mean, I'd argue that several stories easily outshine some of the weaker (even classic) Star Trek episodes.
I don't think I'm moving the goalposts:

Quote:
is there a Cryptic mission that deals with a serious issue, in the way that the television shows attempted to do?
Please describe how the Cryptic mission does so "in the way that the television shows attempted to do."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
02-16-2012, 08:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curs0r View Post
Does the character editor only offering bipedal races confront the issue of racism? I kid of course, but not a lot.
Me and the entire crew of the U.S.S. Linsanity are going to check that out once the win streak ends.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
02-16-2012, 08:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkfat View Post
But DK, I asked if these missions compared to Star Trek, plain and simple. Whether one is better than the other is implicit in the question. If they can be compared, then they approach the same level of thoughtfulness and quality. If there is no comparison, then there is no comparison: A crucial part of Trek is missing from the game, entirely.
You never asked whether the game as whole is more thoughtful/nuanced/etc. than the entirety of the Star Trek series (including film and television). This is a goalpost you moved later on. I already pointed out that the original questions did not ask this.

To answer your new questions, obviously the answer is no. This game cannot compare as a whole to the series, nor its best missions to the best episodes of Star Trek.

I can name individual examples from the shows that stack up poorly against individual examples from the game but the TV shows' highs are higher than this game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkfat View Post
I don't think I'm moving the goalposts:

Please describe how the Cryptic mission does so "in the way that the television shows attempted to do."
"In the way the shows attempted to do" =/= better than.

I also pointed out that the Romulan featured series is more thoughtful and nuanced in regards to self-determination of a society than "Friday's Child" was.
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