Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
...and it is a simple one.

I'm going to go ahead and assume that the majority of people whom I address with this post, have played or are familiar with, one or more other MMOs where the concept of death, while still providing little in the way of actual penalty, is most definitely, and significantly, detrimental to a group's chances of completing an encounter. And this is the crux of the issue. Should players be able to throw their lives (and the lives of their crew) away so carelessly? To play so poorly, that it becomes ALMOST as efficient to stand in the fire, die, respawn and rejoin, as it is to play properly (turn and run from incoming damage you cannot survive, be ready with DR abilities for spike damage etc)?

Here is the current situation...

You face the enemy, you do as much damage as you can, you may or may not die. You respawn, rejoin the fight and repeat. No real tactics required beyond the effort of survivng for long enough to do enough damage to 'do your part'

The problem is that the current damage output in Elite STFs is geared around this 'die/respawn/repeat-fest', so in order to adjust this, the damage would need proper balancing. This may be part of the reason that Cryptic have never bothered to do this. At least in the current state of play they could say "oh, yeh, the invisitorp one shot kill bug, yeh, it's not intended, but hey, it doesn't stop the player from respawning and rejoining the fight, the team can still complete the optional objectives, let's just leave it'.

Consider for a minute the state of play in other games... you stand in the fire, you die, you cause your group a problem because they cannot resurrect you (or they can on a long cooldown, one member per encounter) until the encounter is concluded, which they cannot do without your dps.

Would it not be more compelling if a tank was needed, at least for SOME PARTS of an encounter, and that said tank needed a dedicated healer, again, for only some parts of the fight, and that the dps should have to avoid the avoidable damage?

Is there anyone else (who aren't the lazy "I like to faceroll my way through elite encounters, don't tread on me dude") who would prefer to have to play properly and cleverly in order to survive or complete a complex specialised objective, ala raiding in other MMOs?

Some encounters in Wrath of the Lich King and Cataclysm took our hardcore raid team many, MANY hours of practice and learning to complete. Encounters that many on the server would not achieve in the current tier, and the jubilation when that boss went down...the sense of reward, the sense of achievement....is something that just doesn't exist in STO, but it could.

At least could 'Legendary' difficulty be implemented, in which death means death until the encounter concludes or is reset?

Before people say 'Elite STFs are hard'...No, they are not. Really. They aren't. Try a heroic raid encounter in WoW, look at the tactics required to defeat the top challenges in that game, the level of performance required to achieve...I prefer STO to WoW as a game and as a concept. I always preferred spaceships to dragons, but please, let's have a real challenge with properly balanced damage.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-28-2012, 07:21 AM
While I agree that Elite STF damage output needs to be re-worked, I do not want this game to fall into the pure worship of the MMO holy trinity of Tank/Healer/DPS.

Everyone needs to be responsible for their own health. Understand your ship's strengths and weaknesses and play to them. Even in my escort I can hang in a firefight and take a pounding for quite a while before I finally run out of survivability skills and have to retreat.

But in order to do that you need to be able to survive. Getting blasted by an unavoidable attack that hits for more than 3 times my entire shield/health pool even with defensive buffs on = not good. This does not encourage "skillful play".

Here is what you do:
1. Any avoidable enemy attack can "one shot" without trouble. (ie. Heavy Plasma torps that can be shot down, Donatra's AOE beam attack that can be avoided. "DON'T STAND IN THE FIRE!")
2. Any unavoidable enemy attack must either be survivable by itself, or survivable with use of skills to mitigate the damage. (ie. normal torps that cannot be evaded or shot down once fired.)

Damage output in elite STFs should stress players, not frustrate them. I am not against designing encounters in elites to "gear check" players. But the elites should also "skill check" players. Can you be in the right place at the right time, or use the right skill at the right time.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
02-28-2012, 07:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImminentStorm View Post
While I agree that Elite STF damage output needs to be re-worked, I do not want this game to fall into the pure worship of the MMO holy trinity of Tank/Healer/DPS.

Everyone needs to be responsible for their own health. Understand your ship's strengths and weaknesses and play to them. Even in my escort I can hang in a firefight and take a pounding for quite a while before I finally run out of survivability skills and have to retreat.

But in order to do that you need to be able to survive. Getting blasted by an unavoidable attack that hits for more than 3 times my entire shield/health pool even with defensive buffs on = not good. This does not encourage "skillful play".

Here is what you do:
1. Any avoidable enemy attack can "one shot" without trouble. (ie. Heavy Plasma torps that can be shot down, Donatra's AOE beam attack that can be avoided.)
2. Any unavoidable enemy attack must either be survivable by itself, or survivable with use of skills to mitigate the damage. (ie. normal torps that cannot be evaded or shot down once fired.)

Damage output in elite STFs should stress players, not frustrate them. I am not against designing encounters in elites to "gear check" players. But the elites should also "skill check" players. Can you be in the right place at the right time, or use the right skill at the right time.
I agree with everything you stated. I too do not want to see rigid Trinity-esque style tactics, at least, not all the time, but occasoinally, just to require the group coordination, you might need to send a 'tanky' type player (be he in an escort, a cruiser or a sci ship) to absorb a hit that would otherwise fall to someone who isn't prepared for it, just for the tactics side, not to pigeon-hole players. the Fleet Escort can be quite tanky for short periods, as can any other ship obviously).

I'm asking for encounters complex enough that some roles would need to be defined in order to succeed. For example...ok, you'll be kiting the Super Death Sphere, you, you'll be tanking the cube for hte first half, then in phase two switch to dps on the gate while we burn down the cube, player 3, you need to heal player 1 for phase one of X, etc, etc. Let us SHOW our skill, teamwork and coordination, this can be done without requiring a rigid trinity type group.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-28-2012, 07:27 AM
Never gonna happen.

At the moment dieing in space stfs means you spend at least 10-30 seconds doing no DPS. while your team is taking more fire (4 targets for the enem instead of 5).

If we didnt have timers on the optionals/possiblity of failed objectives, I could understand. However we do have those and you need everyone in the fight as long as possible. Dieing weakens your team, makes it more likely you will fail and also costs you components.

Your death punishes your entire team.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-28-2012, 08:20 AM
This community decided long ago we weren't big on consequence for deaths, lol.

Because you are new you obviously missed the massive and incredibly heated debate this game had over death and it's consequences.

Here's a little back story:
This game originally had only the default fight mode and 0 death penalty. A few players requested a consequence for dieing and the devs were going to implement it as a standard feature of the game. Most players HATED the idea w/ a passion and opposed it. The team then decided to make it "optional" by attaching it to the elite setting.

The way it used to work was that you could buy repair and med kits for you and your ship OR travel to a space station and do the repair and healing there for less. Funny thing is that after the system was in place those who requested it were so unhappy they had to actually pay, they then changed it to it's current configuration. Now you can stack up injuries and damage all you want and repair or fix them for free when you leave the mission.

Here's a thread I started when I realized that death penalty had now become free.
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...=death+penalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by aashenfox
...and it is a simple one.

I'm going to go ahead and assume that the majority of people whom I address with this post, have played or are familiar with, one or more other MMOs where the concept of death, while still providing little in the way of actual penalty, is most definitely, and significantly, detrimental to a group's chances of completing an encounter. And this is the crux of the issue. Should players be able to throw their lives (and the lives of their crew) away so carelessly? To play so poorly, that it becomes ALMOST as efficient to stand in the fire, die, respawn and rejoin, as it is to play properly (turn and run from incoming damage you cannot survive, be ready with DR abilities for spike damage etc)?

Here is the current situation...

You face the enemy, you do as much damage as you can, you may or may not die. You respawn, rejoin the fight and repeat. No real tactics required beyond the effort of survivng for long enough to do enough damage to 'do your part'

The problem is that the current damage output in Elite STFs is geared around this 'die/respawn/repeat-fest', so in order to adjust this, the damage would need proper balancing. This may be part of the reason that Cryptic have never bothered to do this. At least in the current state of play they could say "oh, yeh, the invisitorp one shot kill bug, yeh, it's not intended, but hey, it doesn't stop the player from respawning and rejoining the fight, the team can still complete the optional objectives, let's just leave it'.

Consider for a minute the state of play in other games... you stand in the fire, you die, you cause your group a problem because they cannot resurrect you (or they can on a long cooldown, one member per encounter) until the encounter is concluded, which they cannot do without your dps.

Would it not be more compelling if a tank was needed, at least for SOME PARTS of an encounter, and that said tank needed a dedicated healer, again, for only some parts of the fight, and that the dps should have to avoid the avoidable damage?

Is there anyone else (who aren't the lazy "I like to faceroll my way through elite encounters, don't tread on me dude") who would prefer to have to play properly and cleverly in order to survive or complete a complex specialised objective, ala raiding in other MMOs?

Some encounters in Wrath of the Lich King and Cataclysm took our hardcore raid team many, MANY hours of practice and learning to complete. Encounters that many on the server would NEVER achieve in the current tier, and the jubilation when that boss went down...the sense of reward, the sense of achievement....is something that just doesn't exist in STO.

At least could 'Legendary' difficulty be implemented, in which death means death until the encounter concludes or is reset?

Before people say 'Elite STFs are hard'...No, they are not. Really. They aren't. They are the Hello Kitty of MMO raids. Try a heroic raid encounter in WoW, look at the tactics required to defeat the top challenges in that game, the level of performance required to achieve...I prefer STO to WoW as a game and as a concept. I always preferred spaceships to dragons, but please, I need a real challenge. Please?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
02-28-2012, 08:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilv View Post
This community decided long ago we weren't big on consequence for deaths, lol.

Because you are new you obviously missed the massive and incredibly heated debate this game had over death and it's consequences.

Here's a little back story:
This game originally had only the default fight mode and 0 death penalty. A few players requested a consequence for dying and the devs were going to implement it as a standard feature of the game. Most players HATED the idea w/ a passion and opposed it. The team then decided to make it "optional" by attaching it to the elite setting.

The way it used to work was that you could buy repair and med kits for you and your ship OR travel to a space station and do the repair and healing there for less. Funny thing is that after the system was in place those who requested it were so unhappy they had to actually pay they then changed it to it's current configuration. Now you can stack up injuries and damage all you want and repair or fix them for free when you leave the mission.

Here's a thread I started when I realized that death penalty had now become free.
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...=death+penalty
This...and I'm pretty sure this is why STO has been very enjoyable to most.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
02-28-2012, 08:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xceptionzero View Post
Never gonna happen.
lol?


Quote:
Originally Posted by xceptionzero View Post
...a bunch of stuff anyone who has done an STF in STO already knows...

...Your death punishes your entire team.
Not enough. But it's ok, you must like facerolling easy stuff and being killed randomly by unsurvivable damage regardless of your play technique. I however do not. I want a proper challenge where a mistake by one player jeopardises the whole encounter, you know, something difficult? Please let people who want a challenge and to be rewarded for skillful play participate in this topic with viewpoints that are relevant rather than simply quote the status quo with a 'never gonna happen' thrown in for good measure. Ta.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
02-28-2012, 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilv View Post
This community decided long ago we weren't big on consequence for deaths, lol.

Because you are new you obviously missed the massive and incredibly heated debate this game had over death and it's consequences.

Here's a little back story:
This game originally had only the default fight mode and 0 death penalty. A few players requested a consequence for dying and the devs were going to implement it as a standard feature of the game. Most players HATED the idea w/ a passion and opposed it. The team then decided to make it "optional" by attaching it to the elite setting.

The way it used to work was that you could buy repair and med kits for you and your ship OR travel to a space station and do the repair and healing there for less. Funny thing is that after the system was in place those who requested it were so unhappy they had to actually pay they then changed it to it's current configuration. Now you can stack up injuries and damage all you want and repair or fix them for free when you leave the mission.

Here's a thread I started when I realized that death penalty had now become free.
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...=death+penalty
Yep, this is why we have tiered difficulty. Why does Blizzard bother with content that can only be completed by a mere 5% of players in the current tier? They must be insane! Oh, wait, no, Heroic difficulty is one of the things that keeps WoW alive and made it the most profitable MMO of all time. It did some stuff wrong, but top level endgame wasn't one of those things. Even the casuals enjoyed going back to the previous tier heroic stuff once they outgeared it.

I say again, give us legendary difficulty, intended to be completed by properly skilled people. Don't change the normal and elite if players don't want it. Don't even change the rewards for the legendary difficulty, just give us a real challenge please
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
02-28-2012, 08:40 AM
I personally don't like the respawn mechanic in STO. While on Ground, I can somewhat handwave it... any attempt to handwave your ship blowing up, everyone onboard dieing... and you just reappear with minimal crew and maybe some damage to your ship? It just completely makes no sense.

While yes, the community as a whole shot down the idea of any sort of death penalty, I do feel thats why you have one-shot Borg on Elite. Since the penalty for dieing is so minimal, compared to any other MMO, there isn't much need to prevent enemies from being able to fling around oneshots. Plus it just turns Elite STFs into a DPS thing.

While it'll never happen, I still feel a better solution is Injuries and Damages arise DURING combat, to reflect your ship/person sustaining damage during a prolonged fight. Or at least, for the space combat as ground combat respawns can be handwaved as a kind of emergency recall to the ship, a quick patch up, and beamed back down to the fight. But space? "Oh no the entire ship blew up! Hang on, we seemed to have sustained minor damage to an EPS conduit when our ship exploded..."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
02-28-2012, 08:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
I personally don't like the respawn mechanic in STO. While on Ground, I can somewhat handwave it... any attempt to handwave your ship blowing up, everyone onboard dieing... and you just reappear with minimal crew and maybe some damage to your ship? It just completely makes no sense.

While yes, the community as a whole shot down the idea of any sort of death penalty, I do feel thats why you have one-shot Borg on Elite. Since the penalty for dieing is so minimal, compared to any other MMO, there isn't much need to prevent enemies from being able to fling around oneshots. Plus it just turns Elite STFs into a DPS thing.

While it'll never happen, I still feel a better solution is Injuries and Damages arise DURING combat, to reflect your ship/person sustaining damage during a prolonged fight. Or at least, for the space combat as ground combat respawns can be handwaved as a kind of emergency recall to the ship, a quick patch up, and beamed back down to the fight. But space? "Oh no the entire ship blew up! Hang on, we seemed to have sustained minor damage to an EPS conduit when our ship exploded..."
Thanks for the level headed words. I find your signature particularly ironic in the current climate of this topic.

I don't see what possible problem the unwashed masses could have with implementation of a third difficulty setting where death is death until an encounter is played out. Where one (bad) mistake results in failure. Where damage is harsh, but survivable provided you react instantly and perfectly to it. The casuals in WoW don't have a problem with it, cos they know they aren't going to get a well enough coordinated group together without joining a fleet and earning their place in a hardcore team. Are STO folks so...I dunno, what's the word...backward? That they would step on an idea that would make more players happy and not change their personal experience?
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