Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 51
02-21-2012, 07:29 PM
I've never really been fond of the Excelsior T5 idea...

Sure they still show a few of them in service in the shows, but it's more like they are tough and there's no need to toss them out. I mean..we're talking the Enterprise B being better than the C, D, and E.

Speaking of it and how it helps make the Ambassador, Enterprise C, useless and pointless to put into the game, seems to me just points to the fact that they need to ditch the T5 Ent B and rework the progression of cruisers. Perhaps all of the ships really.
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# 52
02-21-2012, 07:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron
Steps on the Excelsior's toes and we cannot have that in TSO it seems.
I guess that means Cryptic will be introducing a T3 +2 ship.
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# 53
02-21-2012, 07:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramierez View Post
Sure they still show a few of them in service in the shows, but it's more like they are tough and there's no need to toss them out. I mean..we're talking the Enterprise B being better than the C, D, and E.
The Ent-B would be the T3 version. The Lakota Refit from DS 9 would be the T5 version - though I think most of us canonites would prefer it at T4.
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# 54
02-21-2012, 07:38 PM
I find responses to the question of a worthy war during the period of Ambassador's original service period to be interesting. While the Federation may not have had consistent open combat with the Klingons or the Romulans, the Federation did have open combat with the Cardassians and the Tholians. This back history is eluded to during the TNG television series. Perhaps these instances weren't described as on the scale of, say, the Dominion War. I don't think these matters were skirmishes. Then again, all any of of us have is speculation. As these incidents weren't put to video. Though some novels may fill those gaps more concisely than we can.

That said, I don't think a skin is enough to make the Ambassador available to player's. More should be done.

I think what what might work to further inclusion of Ambassador at Teir 4 is to make a +1 Galaxy. without Saucer Separation. So as to further distinguish Galaxy as the starship whose tech breakthroughs were based directly upon the Ambassador. This is, IMO, suggested on page 1,14, 75 & 84 of the TNG Technical Manual by Sternbach and Okuda. So what if the T4 Ambassador and Galaxy look too close in stats? A +1 Galaxy would widen the gap a bit. Yet not be as shiny as the T5 with Saucer Separation.

Edit to add: Yes, we do have Venture. So technically the groundwork is already in place for my suggestion.
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# 55
02-21-2012, 07:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron
Steps on the Excelsior's toes and we cannot have that in TSO it seems.
I honestly don't see how. What's stopping them having two T3+1 ships? Escorts could be argued to have two T5+1's already, and the same could be said for Cruisers and Sci's.
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# 56
02-21-2012, 07:53 PM
It's nice to know I'm really not the only one who thinks that was a type of war time back then.
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# 57
02-21-2012, 07:53 PM
Problem, Psi'a Meese, is the militarization of Starfleet as you see no indications of such on the Galaxy design.

This change of Starfleet is not one I would appreciate, Starfleet does not build warships and it taken a event as of Battle of Wolf 359 to make then to design ships with a military intent.

So the "military Ambassador" is something I cannot agree with because there is no evidence for it and all evidence points to the opposite, it was a heavy cruiser as the Constitution was a heavy cruiser, I would think the design was either found lacking or that the upcoming Galaxy simply put end to further construction the Ambassador class ships.

Making it a +1 Galaxy is absurd, its would make the Enterprise B and the Enterprise E about the same abilities, its already silly the Enterprise D is at the highest tier were the Enterprise E is lower that it.

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pr1983 View Post
I honestly don't see how. What's stopping them having two T3+1 ships? Escorts could be argued to have two T5+1's already, and the same could be said for Cruisers and Sci's.
The fact the Excelsior Lakota Retrofit is a Tier 5 class that outclasses the Sovereign class?

In case you missed my jab, someone at Cryptic really likes the Excelsior and I suppose we should be thankful its not a Tier 4+1 ship.
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# 58
02-21-2012, 08:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartzilla2007 View Post
its more advanced then an Excelsior.
This is why I think level scaling is the best option for it.

I'd assume it was in service alongside Mirandas, Connie Refits, Excelsiors, and even some of the early Galaxies. By having it scale from Tier 1 to Tier 4 or 4.5, you cover its service history. By having it cap at 4.5, you establish it as being more advanced that the Excelsior (a Tier 3 ship) and less advanced than the Lakota (a Tier 5 ship).

Giving each faction one "heirloom" scaling ship evens out the fleets around an iconic design that will be prevalent for leveling.

By having it scale, you can justify around a 2k pricetag. (It beats paying 400+ 400 + 800 +800 if you're willing to stick to a cruiser) and having it cap at Tier 4 or Tier 4.5 avoids overstating its versatility.

At the same time, having it scale up to Tier 4.5 makes it reasonably viable at endgame, filling the void somewhat for people who want a Tier 5 Connie. It's not a Connie but it's really the halfway mark between a Connie and a Galaxy.

If there's anxiety about it selling as a ship that caps out at Tier 4.5, I think it would be relatively simple to also toss in the Yesterday's Enterprise uniforms into a bundle with it for 2k. That could be just the WoK jacket with no collar and variable rank insignia and collar (justifying going back and fixing rank insignia on the old jacket), maybe include the TNG alternate uniforms (TNG jacket with rounded collar and black sleeve cuffs). Toss in the bridge if they're very anxious and I think it becomes a must buy, even at a price as high as 2400 C-Points.

The Ambassador bridge set is basically halfway inbetween the TNG Galaxy battle bridge and the TMP bridge, as all three shared the same set. So tossing it in with an ambassador pack would enable plenty of use elsewhere.

There's a lot of things you could toss into a Yesterday's Enterprise pack that build on assets that can be partially financed through separate C-Store items or are tweaks of other assets.

On reflection, maybe the Klingon counterpart would be the voDIeH, which would probably be a scaled down and tweaked Negh'var. (The two classes shared a model although I think the voDIeH is smaller and technically supposed to be more prevalent in the future era of the game, appearing in AGT and Endgame.) The voDIeH would ordinarily have a difficult time finding a place in the game, much like the Ambassador, due to its shared model with the Negh'var. But by rescaling it and making it a leveling ship, I could see the case. (There's both some case to scale it down or up, really.)
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# 59
02-21-2012, 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramierez View Post
I've never really been fond of the Excelsior T5 idea...

Sure they still show a few of them in service in the shows, but it's more like they are tough and there's no need to toss them out. I mean..we're talking the Enterprise B being better than the C, D, and E.

Speaking of it and how it helps make the Ambassador, Enterprise C, useless and pointless to put into the game, seems to me just points to the fact that they need to ditch the T5 Ent B and rework the progression of cruisers. Perhaps all of the ships really.
Going with what I've been able to find, the Excelsior frame (with totally new systems and interiors) was intended by the showrunners to have been in production up until Wolf 359, when the last new one was built.

The final Excelsior shown on camera had a redressed Intrepid/Voyager interior.
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# 60
02-21-2012, 08:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
This is why I think level scaling is the best option for it.

I'd assume it was in service alongside Mirandas, Connie Refits, Excelsiors, and even some of the early Galaxies. By having it scale from Tier 1 to Tier 4 or 4.5, you cover its service history. By having it cap at 4.5, you establish it as being more advanced that the Excelsior (a Tier 3 ship) and less advanced than the Lakota (a Tier 5 ship).

Giving each faction one "heirloom" scaling ship evens out the fleets around an iconic design that will be prevalent for leveling.

By having it scale, you can justify around a 2k pricetag. (It beats paying 400+ 400 + 800 +800 if you're willing to stick to a cruiser) and having it cap at Tier 4 or Tier 4.5 avoids overstating its versatility.

At the same time, having it scale up to Tier 4.5 makes it reasonably viable at endgame, filling the void somewhat for people who want a Tier 5 Connie. It's not a Connie but it's really the halfway mark between a Connie and a Galaxy.

If there's anxiety about it selling as a ship that caps out at Tier 4.5, I think it would be relatively simple to also toss in the Yesterday's Enterprise uniforms into a bundle with it for 2k. That could be just the WoK jacket with no collar and variable rank insignia and collar (justifying going back and fixing rank insignia on the old jacket), maybe include the TNG alternate uniforms (TNG jacket with rounded collar and black sleeve cuffs). Toss in the bridge if they're very anxious and I think it becomes a must buy, even at a price as high as 2400 C-Points.

The Ambassador bridge set is basically halfway inbetween the TNG Galaxy battle bridge and the TMP bridge, as all three shared the same set. So tossing it in with an ambassador pack would enable plenty of use elsewhere.

There's a lot of things you could toss into a Yesterday's Enterprise pack that build on assets that can be partially financed through separate C-Store items or are tweaks of other assets.

On reflection, maybe the Klingon counterpart would be the voDIeH, which would probably be a scaled down and tweaked Negh'var. (The two classes shared a model although I think the voDIeH is smaller and technically supposed to be more prevalent in the future era of the game, appearing in AGT and Endgame.) The voDIeH would ordinarily have a difficult time finding a place in the game, much like the Ambassador, due to its shared model with the Negh'var. But by rescaling it and making it a leveling ship, I could see the case. (There's both some case to scale it down or up, really.)
WOW! I would buy that pack in a heart beat! You are right that if it was a T4.5 you could use it with little probs in endgame and if your really good maybe do all right in pvp on a good day.
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