Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 91
02-23-2012, 11:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
Constructive Criticism: X (Product, feature, item, practice) is dumb, and here's why.
Insulting Criticism: Y (Person, Team) is dumb, and here's why.

I still think the top one goes someplace it doesn't have to. "I don't like (product/feature/item/practice) because" and "I don't think (product/feature/item/practice) fits in with Star Trek because".

I don't know why in a civilized conversation people have to say anything is dumb, that is how a kid has an argument.

As for the greater topic of rudeness not just being a game industry thing, while this is true, the the intensity and public nature id more unique in the setting, being that most other business don't have public forums for customers to rant on. How often have you been in a brick and mortor business and heard someone ranting loudly at an employee because they are unhappy?

Regardless, it doesn't make the rude behavior any more acceptable just because people are rude in other places. And I think more business should tell their customers when they are being unacceptably rude. Too many rude people makes it a hostile environment for me as a customer, and it makes me want to shy away from interacting in those venues.

I wish forums in general were moderated more where posts are locked and the moderator says to the offender in a post why their behavior is unacceptable, but companies hate to name and shame. While I get why, I think overall it would make for a better community, because then everyone gets to see why the behavior is unacceptable and it sets an overall better tone for behavior.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 92
02-23-2012, 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manx View Post
I have worked in a call centre; and I can tell you that if a customer is being rude, and efforts to calm them down are getting you nowhere, it is permitted to terminate the call (at least, in the company I worked for; maybe it's different for others).

In any business, there comes a point where you have to lay down the law; 'this is our policy on that', and policy won't change just because someone starts shouting louder. A customer may always take their money elsewhere if they are unhappy with the product.
Generally I fully agree. I worked in retail tech support for a time; there are more than a few people I would have liked to have pointed to the door of the store and told them to go to Dell on the other side of the mall. :p On the other hand, the ones who started to get angry and heated were the ones who eventually pushed their way to someone who would do something for them, while the people who went, 'Really? You can't do anything? Bummer. Thank you for your time.' had to walk away with less. That really steamed me, but it was apparently 'a' policy.

I didn't like that. I didn't like that one bit. It was unfair to the customers who were polite and nice.

But... and there's always a but -- this can be abused on the business end, too. What do you do if you tell a business something is not working quite right, and the reply is basically sticking their fingers in their ears and going 'LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU EVERYTHING IS FINE YOU'RE JUST A MALCONTENT.'?

That's kind of hyperbole, but I think you get what I'm asking. With the disparity in size between the dev team and the playerbase, you're more likely to see it on the playerbase side, but when it happens on the dev team side, it can be unsettling. This being said, I can understand why communication from the dev team has taken a sharper tone over the past year in most cases. Which is why I feel there needs to be some kind of protocol or established procedure if there isn't one, where feedback can be submitted, respectfully and to the point without being insulting, and a reply is not only a good idea but mandated. The 'fleet council' could have been this except the thing was bolloxed from the start.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 93
02-23-2012, 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by V-Mink
Generally I fully agree. I worked in retail tech support for a time; there are more than a few people I would have liked to have pointed to the door of the store and told them to go to Dell on the other side of the mall. :p On the other hand, the ones who started to get angry and heated were the ones who eventually pushed their way to someone who would do something for them, while the people who went, 'Really? You can't do anything? Bummer. Thank you for your time.' had to walk away with less. That really steamed me, but it was apparently 'a' policy.

I didn't like that. I didn't like that one bit. It was unfair to the customers who were polite and nice.

But... and there's always a but -- this can be abused on the business end, too. What do you do if you tell a business something is not working quite right, and the reply is basically sticking their fingers in their ears and going 'LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU EVERYTHING IS FINE YOU'RE JUST A MALCONTENT.'?

That's kind of hyperbole, but I think you get what I'm asking. With the disparity in size between the dev team and the playerbase, you're more likely to see it on the playerbase side, but when it happens on the dev team side, it can be unsettling. This being said, I can understand why communication from the dev team has taken a sharper tone over the past year in most cases. Which is why I feel there needs to be some kind of protocol or established procedure if there isn't one, where feedback can be submitted, respectfully and to the point without being insulting, and a reply is not only a good idea but mandated. The 'fleet council' could have been this except the thing was bolloxed from the start.
I'm sorry, I don't wish to seem dismissive, but I'm not sure I understand what you are proposing. Surely the 'procedure' is simply to, as you said, be respectful and to the point without being insulting?

It's not like this is a 'live' conversation; we can all stop and look over what we have typed before hitting the submit button, and check for ourselves whether what we have typed comes across as polite and constructive. Yet there's enough people who keep forgetting to do that to 'sour the milk'.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 94
02-23-2012, 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manx View Post
I'm sorry, I don't wish to seem dismissive, but I'm not sure I understand what you are proposing. Surely the 'procedure' is simply to, as you said, be respectful and to the point without being insulting?

It's not like this is a 'live' conversation; we can all stop and look over what we have typed before hitting the submit button, and check for ourselves whether what we have typed comes across as polite and constructive. Yet there's enough people who keep forgetting to do that to 'sour the milk'.
I understand; I'm not being terribly clear. I'd rather not get into specific cases because that won't help any of these issues at this time. I do agree that we each of us have responsibility for what we say here, and that unlike in a face-to-face conversation we have the luxury of looking over what we've said before hitting 'post.' (And even, going back and editing posts.)
Lt. Commander
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# 95 Ok, I read the thread
02-23-2012, 01:57 PM
This is a jumble of things put together, which makes the topic as a whole confusing. Let me see if I can straighten it out.

Obviously some posters went over the line in the linked article. There are ways to resolve those, going from editing out the name calling to calling the police about threats. I think to some degree this type of speech has increased with the advent of the internet because people can speak anonymously and largely without consequences there. It's also true that the internet gives everyone a voice where before a lot of people, both good and bad, both smart and ignorant, went unheard. It's close to a wash in the end, with my thinking the ability for everyone to be heard a net good.

Then there is the customer service angle. I spent some years in retail management, and before that worked for tips while in college. I've always said at some point everyone needs to work a job behind a counter dealing with people and another working for tips. Because then you see the other side of the coin; you tip if you ever worked for tips and you think of the person behind the counter as a human being when you've been the human being in question yourself. Some people never get those experiences and they can be very rude to others. And this isn't new, I was there for the 70's and it was still there.

But there is a very old saying, and it is still true to some extent: The squeaky wheel gets the grease. I remember one customer who brought in a 6 month old computer wanting a full refund. We offered her warranty service, even replacing the computer, but she was extremely unpleasant and continuing to demand something that was against the rules. She went over my head, over my boss's head, and ultimately to corporate headquarters where the word came down to give her her money back. She got the grease, and got what she did not deserve by being a big enough pain in the neck. A lot of people find this approach to work in getting what they want when polite discourse does not. This applies to the internet as well. Smart and well-reasoned points often get lost in the ocean of information while inflammatory and controversial statements get widespread attention. This happened in the article we're discussing here.

There is one other aspect of internet discussion not mentioned here, though it isn't exclusive to the internet. Gather a group of like-minded people and they tend to become more extreme in their viewpoints and speech. Politics is rife with this problem, and it applies to game forums as well. People seek attention and status, and to have things go the way they want. So they one-up the other person as a way of acheiving those goals.

Add all these things together and we get a lot of what we see today. Speaking directly to MMOs and their game forums, people feel powerless and out of control oftentimes when dealing with the game companies. They're told they don't own the very characters they spent hundreds of hours developing or the accounts and software they paid for. This flies in the face of experience with almost every other element of their life. It also flies in the face of real life when those players sometimes sell things from the game for real life cash. So we get some of what we see here. People really want something in the game or not to have something in the game, and they do the only things available to them: complain, sometimes really loudly trying to get attention out of the sea of posts, or quit the game. Since quitting the game is tantamount to losing the argument and having to give up everything they did in the game prior to this, the complaining is the major outlet.

I've stepped over the line a time or two myself. I'm passionate about this game I've spent thousands of hours enjoying, and don't want to give everything I've done there up by leaving. I never approached the level of hate mentioned in the article, but it has happened. But in some recent cases thousands of posts, both serious and thoughtful, and outrageous and raging, have gone by without any response at all. People tend to keep upping the amperage until some response is made. Game companies need to keep this in mind as well.

Sorry for the wall of text.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 96
02-23-2012, 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manx View Post
I have worked in a call centre; and I can tell you that if a customer is being rude, and efforts to calm them down are getting you nowhere, it is permitted to terminate the call (at least, in the company I worked for; maybe it's different for others).

In any business, there comes a point where you have to lay down the law; 'this is our policy on that', and policy won't change just because someone starts shouting louder. A customer may always take their money elsewhere if they are unhappy with the product. (snipped)
This and several good comments after. I've seen the jerk keep going higher up the chain to get special treatment, and I've gone the extra mile for the person who was nice. I personally reward the latter behavior not the former and endeavor to do so in my personal and professional lives.

Here's my personal problem(s):
A) The behavior exhibited in the article should never be tolerated. NEVER! If a worker says anything (particularly if it's something said outside of work), that never gives consumers of their businesses product the right to harass, abuse, or anything else like that. Be it Cryptic, another studio, or any other business.

There is no equivocating, there is no other view on this matter. Treating someone else as anything less than a human being is shameful (I would argue moreso on this forum, IDIC)

B) Yes, the game has changed since launch because of feedback. That doesn't give license to be rude. And some of those people who were here at beta and are either gone from the game or banned from the forums? It's because they went to the 'dark side' and started being rude.

C) Being insulting, rude, etc just shuts down communication. It doesn't matter how good your point is, if you're being a jerk about it, I don't care (and may not implement it out of spite). If you're reasonable, I can accept that I might be in the wrong. I know that's a radical view, but one I think most people can subscribe to.

D) Thanks for scaring me away from the rest of the internet. If this forum is tame/respectful, OMG what's out there?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
Constructive Criticism: X (Product, feature, item, practice) is dumb, and here's why.
Insulting Criticism: Y (Person, Team) is dumb, and here's why.
Sums it up in a nutshell.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 97
02-24-2012, 02:11 AM
A quote from that article...

"Attacks on her have referenced Hitler, bestiality, ****, murder, cannibalism, and prostitution."

That is taking it to a whole new level. Such players should not get away with it, accounts banned, IP address blocked and where it is regarding religion it should be reported to the Police occasionally to try and create examples.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 98
02-24-2012, 08:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zypher2011
A quote from that article...

"Attacks on her have referenced Hitler, bestiality, ****, murder, cannibalism, and prostitution."

That is taking it to a whole new level. Such players should not get away with it, accounts banned, IP address blocked and where it is regarding religion it should be reported to the Police occasionally to try and create examples.
Those are absolutely beyond the pale.

I will admit: I have sometimes not spoken well of Cryptic as a whole. I have issues with Cryptic, and i've sometimes not been as circumspect as I could have been. But those that you mention are absolutely unconscionable and unequivocably have no place in any criticism, of either Bioware or Cryptic.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 99
02-25-2012, 12:16 AM
Personally i think the topic is importand in highlighting that people can be fools


i have been called more then those few words in STF's and i dont think twice......



well cept for the hitler part.......no wait they called me a dictator cause i was barking orders...so nevermind.



They have the tools to drop those players and ban them,,,easy enough.


if her feelings are hurt she needs to pony up and play with the big boys...and move on...this would IMO be much less of a deal if it were a guy as one person who posted implied and i agree so.


As to her comments about fast forwarding though content....uhhhhhhhhhh I need to reread that but i would never allow for a fast forward button through content other then basic speech.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 100
02-25-2012, 12:26 AM
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