Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
02-22-2012, 11:09 AM
Eh, I don't think this is about entitlement nor about Internet anonymity. I just see this as fallout of living in the Information Age. We are constantly bombarded by the media... mass, social, broadcast, digital, print... it's impossible to escape it. As a result people have fallen into a mindset where they believe that only the loudest, most inflammatory rhetoric will be noticed in that sea of information which, thanks to overload, has simply become white noise. Sadly, I'm not sure there isn't merit to that notion. Take a look at the political scene; The rabble-rousers get heard while calmer heads get ignored or victimized until they respond in kind.

As bad as that is, what makes things worse is the fallout for those who propose reasonable arguments with merit. Human beings already have a staggering propensity toward confirmation bias, dismissing data which runs contrary to their beliefs instead of examining it and weighing it accordingly. When the voices being heard are usually the ones that scream the most inflammatory rhetoric the loudest it just makes it so much easier to tune out everyone who disagrees with you. Any opposition becomes quickly viewed as invalid and simply filed away as more of "those people."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
02-22-2012, 11:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongoson View Post
It is not just gamers. It is a social issue as a whole.

Consider how folks would of responded say 10 years ago, and then go back 10 years into that. Society itself is doing the "teaching" of what is acceptable. Its that very fabric that molds folks into the behaviors they exhibit.

I can show you many instances of this in other products.
Here's one to try on for size. Think about how folks dissatisfied with their customer service would have responded to a female sales rep in 1952 or 1962 or 1972. I mean, if we're using a wayback machine, let's use it.

Some of the offensive language would have been different, but the sexism and offensiveness would have been ramped up a bit due to the way society was back then.

Food for thought.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
02-22-2012, 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHappyJoyJoy View Post
Eh, I don't think this is about entitlement nor about Internet anonymity. I just see this as fallout of living in the Information Age. We are constantly bombarded by the media... mass, social, broadcast, digital, print... it's impossible to escape it. As a result people have fallen into a mindset where they believe that only the loudest, most inflammatory rhetoric will be noticed in that sea of information which, thanks to overload, has simply become white noise. Sadly, I'm not sure there isn't merit to that notion. Take a look at the political scene; The rabble-rousers get heard while calmer heads get ignored or victimized until they respond in kind.

As bad as that is, what makes things worse is the fallout for those who propose reasonable arguments with merit. Human beings already have a staggering propensity toward confirmation bias, dismissing data which runs contrary to their beliefs instead of examining it and weighing it accordingly. When the voices being heard are usually the ones that scream the most inflammatory rhetoric the loudest it just makes it so much easier to tune out everyone who disagrees with you. Any opposition becomes quickly viewed as invalid and simply filed away as more of "those people."
Wow. I think you just described how Gozer's commentary about the content drought went, and how Geko's twitter comments went. That's quite a powerful point you make since it sheds some light on the whole two-way street that communication can be.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
02-22-2012, 11:18 AM
Ouch!

I don't post much, due to peoples personal issues getting vented out on-line at anyone. Back when I played SWG it happened a lot. Players get a little too ahead of themselves and start dictating instructions to Devs and Community Reps.

I agree though, it's not just on-line that this happens. Without getting into the ugly details of it all, this happens at my work alot. See I work for a customer serivce based company so the idea of "The Customer is Always Right" is a statement I get told alot. Truth is the customers are not always right, they may have good ideas, but it's outside of what can be done. Explaining this to them is a no-no, since a few customer complaints can cost you your job.

I have "learned" the art of gental debate inorder to allow a customer to tell me that "It's Easy", while not hurting their feelings when I explain the truth to them. It's hard and if you take it too personally it can hurt. Sometimes though you'll get a person that for whatever reason just wants to be a pain. It's a little different in-person then on-line, but not by much (at least from what I've seen and delt with)

I often read the forums (not just this one) and think, "wow I can't believe this person is acting like they own the company or something". This article really shows the bad side of this behavior, but it's just "Cyber Bullying" by a powerless group towards a captive person (the community reps) I never understood this in real-life, nor on-line.

Yeah I know alot to read (you should have read some of me posts on SGW, TOR, or even STO back when Pep was doing it).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
02-22-2012, 11:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
Here's one to try on for size. Think about how folks dissatisfied with their customer service would have responded to a female sales rep in 1952 or 1962 or 1972. I mean, if we're using a wayback machine, let's use it.

Some of the offensive language would have been different, but the sexism and offensiveness would have been ramped up a bit due to the way society was back then.

Food for thought.
I am in my 40's and I can assure you that in the 70's you were still expected to be polite in commercial discourse. You couldn't usually get away with the overt rudeness you see today. The article is correct and unfortunately it's not just online (although it is worse there) it's been seeping into culture for at least 20 years.

"The customer is always right" may be a useful business policy but it's a poison in our culture.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
02-22-2012, 11:25 AM
I just read this and can sum up my attitude as thus:

People who claim to be fans of a genre or medium and police a genre or medium for standards tend to actlike obscene jerks.

A lot of this boils down to "what constitutes a game." I've seen the exact thing with "what makes a good movie", "what makes a good horror/action/children's movie", "what makes a good comic book" etc.

Nothing good can come of classify the essential parts of what a product must have. This goes for developers and it goes for fans.

Stop trying to pigeonhole things with features X, Y, and Z.

This is a bunch of label bashing. I've seen academics do it. And the folks doing it, on both sides, on Twitter are just engaged in a vulgar version of it.

What happened is:

BioWare employee challenged the definition of games and suggested that story can be more important than skill. Which is a valid, if extreme, position to occupy in game design. That isn't to say ALL games need to be like that but all she suggested was that some games could be that way.

Enter a cavalcade of people insisting "games must be X" and using lots of vulgarity to get attention.

I think it's very easy to focus on the gender issues or the abuse but I think you're burying the lead there by doing that. Ever since the inception of the FPS, really since the inception of competitive gameplay, people have behaved badly to one another in their discussion of games. I'm more interested in what that discussion is than the tone it's taken.

This whole thing echoes the ludologists crying fowl and claiming that the narratologists are colonizing their media while in turn many ludologists started insisting their game/symbolic interaction focus should replace traditional literary analysis. It's the same set of arguments except the crassness and accusations of discrimination are a bit reversed here. Here, it's the crude ludologists accusing the "feminist" narratologist of invading their game whereas in academia, the narrative focused people are accused of being patriarchs invading the feminine world of symbolic social interaction and conflict.

In essence, here you have gamers saying story over combat is girly. In academia, you have more people suggesting that combat/sandbox play is refreshingly girly and that a focus on story is the patriarchy coming in to oppress the triumph of feminine bloodsport.

The flaw, I think, lies in attempting to define and defend cultural products such as games as one thing more than another. A choose your own adventure movie is a game. Tetris is also a game. Being a game shouldn't involve excluding things that aren't gamelike in their focus nor should it require the embrace of things that are gamelike. Products should have integrity to what they do and illustrate a model of self-consistent excellence.

Don't set out to define what a game must be. Or what a good movie must be. That's fundamentalism. It will make you look bad and do bad things if you cling to that kind of thinking ahead of things like civility and respect for diversity of opinions, products, and artistic works.

Where the entitlement comes in is the assumption that every game that comes out with a brand you like is intended for you or that you should have a right to some kind of revenge if it turns out not to be.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
02-22-2012, 11:37 AM
I've been arguing for some time now that the community needs to decide on its social "identity" and take actions to make offenders aware when they go extremely out of the lines of that identity. People not only know an MMORPG for the quality of the content, but also the quality of the players. There are people who are outright rude in this game, and when I have said something about it, I have on several occasions been told to "play 'Hello Kitty Online'".

The questions I pose are:

What is our "indentity"?

What do we want our "identity" to be?

What can we do to make the two become one?

These are the questions that all communities have been thrust upon themselves since the begining of civilization. It's time that we (in STO) answer them for ourselves.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
02-22-2012, 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by geofftillman View Post
I am in my 40's and I can assure you that in the 70's you were still expected to be polite in commercial discourse. You couldn't usually get away with the overt rudeness you see today. The article is correct and unfortunately it's not just online (although it is worse there) it's been seeping into culture for at least 20 years.

"The customer is always right" may be a useful business policy but it's a poison in our culture.
There's nothing wrong with the customer always being right. People just get confused about to what extent they're the customer and whether they're being courted as the customer.

If you don't feel like you're being courted as a customer based on a company's actions, you're probably not being courted... and you're probably not right anymore.

You have to be the customer to be "always right" and however much you've spent, your customer status is always up for renegotiation.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
02-22-2012, 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer View Post
I have on several occasions been told to "play 'Hello Kitty Online'".
no, thats just because of your avatar. :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
02-22-2012, 11:39 AM
One of the comments summed up these individuals quite nicely. "Internet tough guys that pee themselves at the thought of speaking to a flesh and blood woman."
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