Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 51
02-22-2012, 01:58 PM
For what it's worth, I agree with Jeniffer Hepler. Any time I play a new story driven game, I always play on the easiest difficulty for my first playthrough, that way I can enjoy the story without getting frustrated by repeating difficult combats.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 52
02-22-2012, 01:59 PM
Wait a minute here. We have an article that is telling you the context but as with all things media every writer has the tendency to slant it one way or the other. Is it wrong to personally attack a specific dev, yes. But overall context is key here. Given I did not click all the links to stories and archives.

Now how it pertains to STO. I am sure many here will aim this at one of 3 prominent groups here PvPers, PvEErs, and RPers. While each group is guilty of this lets look at the underlying issues each have with this game.

PvPers - Hey we like blowing real people up and only stomach PvE because of the way rewards are handed out. We like a game that is balanced and not too buggy. What we have is game that is out of balance and it is buggy. We feel that since we were paying and we are a part of the community these things should be fixed. We do not really care about PvP and really do not care about RP but PvP should be just beyond functional.

PvEers - Hey we like blowing up AI and have no need for challenges I have a RL with enough challenges. We need all powers to do at least <insert what a power should do> and this game needs to feel more like trek. I really do not PvP and all they do is mess things up for me, there was nothing wrong with uber FaW. Its a game I want to kill the bad guys (AI). The PvPers only look out for themselves and do not care about the bill paying majority, we are the largest group in the community our needs matter more than theirs or anyone elses.

RPers - Hey we like colorful costumes and need immersion, immersion is what gets us into the game. Until <inset broken cosmetic> is fixed it ruins my immersion and makes the game un-enjoyable. Killing things does not matter unless that is the theme of the day for our RPing and how overall powers work doesn't really matter it is about the interaction in fantasy land that is a long way away from RL. I hate how PvPers and PvEers ruin our immersion because we hang out in common areas adn they make fun of us or grief us with <insert greifing method>. We are a large part of the community definitely moreso than the PvPers so we need our stuff addressed. I pay good C-Store points and this costume is clipping please fix it now.


We all are part of the same overall community and for the most part the devs like keeping us as vaguely informed as possible because it buys them time. Everytime they try and be specific they get nailed to the warp core. I think the biggrest problem in the whole community is that while devs show a presence that is all they show because when they ask all of our opinions the final product is usually the exact opposite of what was given to them for feedback. The other problem is most of the devs do not play this game at the level most of us do. They do not have a real PvPer as a dev, they do not have a real PvEer as a Dev or and RPers as a dev. IF they did they could see and relate to what they have an expertise in and how or why people like or dislike something they add. So they add a new power and its awesome but they have no idea how that power will impact PvP or PvE or RP. Then 3 weeks later you start seeing that <insert new power> is OP when 5 ships use it in PvP and faceroll a 10 man team in CnH. QC/QA in this game is lacking is the main oint everyone is trying to meat the deadlin but are forgetting to tighten the lugnuts on the wheels as it rolls out.

Sorry rant off.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 53
02-22-2012, 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by geofftillman View Post
I disagree.
Well put up some deets then. Lay out a plan for your "more stringent" take on customer service. Give us a look at what you think would work for a business in how it deals with its customers.

I really want to see how you can set something up that relies on people paying you for goods or services, and yet gives you the freedom to ignore, antagonize, or shut down their input when you don't want to hear it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 54
02-22-2012, 02:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
Rudeness exists. And has existed. For quite a long time. If a company can't deal with rude customers, they're not doing a good job.

Self-entitlement stems from the act of the customer purchasing goods and services. That will always create a feeling of entitlement. Because the person spent money.

I don't think more stringent standards are needed, nor could they work.

Take out the the profanity laden diatribes from the article and two things happen:

1- The article loses a lot of its entertainment value and people don't link it, talk about it or read it as widely. (Yellow journalism in the virtual world).
2- The actual criticism of what the Bioware person posted is still very robust and still very detailed.
The harassment of the original employee is illegal in both the US and Canada. Death threats aren't just rude.

There's a big difference between entitlement and threatening to end another person's life, as is the case that prompt the backlash from Bioware (and justly so).

You don't have to suffer abuse just because someone paid you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 55
02-22-2012, 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
Well put up some deets then. Lay out a plan for your "more stringent" take on customer service. Give us a look at what you think would work for a business in how it deals with its customers.

I really want to see how you can set something up that relies on people paying you for goods or services, and yet gives you the freedom to ignore, antagonize, or shut down their input when you don't want to hear it.
You have the right to make polite constructive critisism. It's that point that eludes so many posters.
Once you start berating employees or being rude you have gone to far and companies should at that point intervene.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 56
02-22-2012, 03:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zefram Cochrane
I often wonder if in our communities case, if the root cause is that many of us don't understand the development process. Many of us will ask for something, or point out a problem and think the solution is simple. In reality, we're trying to develop in a vacuum.

The process is much more complex and there are many players than we, as a group, see. Once we understand that, then the "simple gameplay addition" or "easy fix" becomes something quite different. Since we don't have that basic understanding, many get frustrated and vent on the forums.
I think there is truth to that and, even with a grasp of technical components, the big occasional source of frustration for me comes down to not understanding certain philosophical decisions.

I gather from things Thomas and Borticus have said that even our developers have these kinds of frustrations sometimes, because there are technical or decision making aspects that even some devs don't necessarily understand or agree with. Now, from Turnerboy's posts, I also gather that there is a certain amount of a "keep your head down and get your work done without being a pain to management" mentality among many of our devs... But there are no doubt discussions they have that mirror our own. But those internal discussions are shaped by knowing more of the how's and why's as well as knowing the other devs better as people.

I'd love to be privy to some of their discussions. I think they tend to clam up on certain topics that have been inflamatory on the forums, which leaves us in the dark on certain things like why they chose the game ranks that they did and why Captain isn't the final rank. I don't know that's ever been addressed. I'm certain there's a reason for it because there's no way you do something that weird without a reason but it's rooted in some planned feature or philosophy that the team has never made public.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 57
02-22-2012, 03:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
I gather from things Thomas and Borticus have said that even our developers have these kinds of frustrations sometimes, because there are technical or decision making aspects that even some devs don't necessarily understand or agree with.
I can tell you from experience that the roles of Engineer and Project Manager are polar opposites. It's a delicate balance to get any decent product out the door. I've been on both sides and I understand the pains they have to deal with.

This is a topic that my fleet is also currently discussing. I posted this to help them understand the different roles and the emotions involved:

Quote:
As an Engineer their perspective is:

"We went through 3 days of design discussions and I fought to include the best features so that our product stands out in the marketplace and now you want me to have all this done in 90 days? ARE YOU NUTS? This is just stupid! if we don't include these things then we won't be any different than our competitors. I don't mind doing the overtime and even working thru weekends, but you have to give me a realistic shot at getting this out the door."


As a Project manager:

"What the hell are you guys doing? The date is the date. We've already slipped once, we're not doing it again. We all committed to getting this done and if we don't, none of us will have jobs because they'll cancel the project. So I'd suggest you get off your rear end, stop playing around and have something ready to check in by Friday."


As a community we should continue to call things out. There's nothing wrong with telling the dev's; "Wow that falling thru the map thing, you really screwed the pooch with that one". It's also important to understand that each of these projects will rarely, if ever, be their greatest work. The nature of the business prevents them from putting all the icing on the cake.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 58
02-22-2012, 03:33 PM
constructive is subjective. destructive is subjective. unfortunately some people just see criticism no matter how much cotton candy and unicorns you give with it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 59
02-22-2012, 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
Uh ... are you suggesting the magazines did not receive profanity laden rants by dissatisfied readers back then?

They did. They just didn't publish them.
^^^^
Pretty much this. That's one thing you folks who weren't around before the days pf dial up BBSes and/or Usenet and now the widespread use of coommunity internet forums may not realize. The correspondence one saw published were things an editor deemed 'fit to print'.

I have a feeling if public forums like this existed 40 years ago - they be just as laden witn slurs, profanity, just plain stupid comments, etc.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 60
02-22-2012, 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armsman View Post
^^^^
Pretty much this. That's one thing you folks who weren't around before the days pf dial up BBSes and/or Usenet and now the widespread use of coommunity internet forums may not realize. The correspondence one saw published were things an editor deemed 'fit to print'.

I have a feeling if public forums like this existed 40 years ago - they be just as laden witn slurs, profanity, just plain stupid comments, etc.
Wildcat BBS FTW !!!
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