Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
02-23-2012, 12:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
Well. . . that's great and all, but I still dislike you twisting my words like that. And while I may work on STO related things in my off time, what and where I choose to put that effort is my business. I appreciate your concern over the Promenade, and share many of the same views as you (as I have pointed out numerous times already). But I think it's unfair to put the burden of such a task upon me (or anyone in particular), and worse to characterize me as not caring enough about the game if I don't comply. The fact is, even if I had been raring to go on such a project, in my spare time, players telling me that I should do it or I else I obviously don't care about the product just serves to make me not want to comply.

Player insistence that something be addressed is great. Players calling out a dev (any dev), or trying to browbeat one into doing their bidding is really counterproductive (and unfortunate if I might add).

I have a schedule of work to be done, during my normal working hours. I do that work. I then have my own time. What I choose to do with my own time, is my own business. If it happens to benefit STO, well huzzah. If it does not, then so be it.

So far, an entire revamp of DS9's Promenade (as I have expressed my desire to do) , has not appeared on my schedule for work time.

This does not mean it never will, it does not mean the devs don't care about the game.
All it means that a redo of the Promenade, to bring it into line with the show, and make it what it truly should be (and perhaps should have been from the start, an argument for another thread), is too big of an undertaking, requiring too many people, too much time, or too much money (which could be argued are all the same thing), to be in the cards right now.
I apologize for characterizing you as uncaring, that was a bit much and I'm sorry. I know the designers on your level care but they often don't receive the time or resources from decision makers to do re-work. And I'm sorry but I believe some of the decision makers really don't care about going back and making things canon. History in STO has shown that it has to be fought for, sadly.

As for my other comments... They weren't twisting your words in my opinon. They were what I took away from your posts on other DS9 threads. I realize in those threads you were trying to explain the demands of your schedule, how you were not assigned to re-do the promenade, and how most designers are generally not paid to go back and do fixes. We've been hearing that sort of thing since STO launched. Please forgive me, but sometimes we get tired of hearing those "explanations" (which comes across as excuses to be honest) after supporting the game monetarily for years. We keep buying and buying yet there is always resistance to go back and fix things that should be canon.

The examples of CapnLogan and DStahl championing and executing re-work are shining examples in STO and much appreciated by many players. But somehow I don't think that has resonated enough with some decision makers and it's why I stressed the issue. I'm sorry for trying to twist your arm with those examples but I was hoping to see a new champion for canon interiors like we've seen for other areas of the game. It was wrong of me to beat you over the head with it, however.

I also admit it is unfair of me or anyone to burden you to champion canon re-work or to ask you fix DS9 up on your own time. You've made it clear that you're not that guy so I'll leave it at that. Again, I was hoping to see the past repeated and some progress made in these areas. Please forgive my passion about fighting for canon artwork.

In any case, I've seen the environment artists in STO do some spectacular work when they are given adequate time and resources. According to DStahl before F2P, "PWE was willing to spend money to make money". Although I don't see much evidence of that yet, I hope that statement becomes true. And that your team is given the task and appropriate time to make all of DS9 look as great as the Conference Room.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
02-23-2012, 12:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
TL;DR -- there will always be finite resources and personnel. I wasn't referring to the hiring freeze, rather that shifting resources from one thing will naturally delay others.
Naw man, don't you know Cryptic is one of these companies that can just hire folks and have them put out stuff like in a week. I mean F2P has been here almost 40 days! I'm sure they are rolling in cash at this point.

I mean they gotta be able to redo everything that exists in the game that I don't like. Its not like they are busy keeping the servers online or in the middle of putting out weekly featured episodes.

Honestly it makes me wonder where some of these players work. Do their jobs not setup projects months in advance? My job is working on the road map for what our September will look like. Folks need to realize that if a Dev says its not on the schedule just let it go. Because even if they added some feature you're dying for chances it gets put at the end of the development queue that's has months of work already scheduled to be released.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
02-23-2012, 12:40 AM
Responding just to the OP.

Yep, Odo's office would be sweet. Along with prison cells full of angry drunks that got hauled out of Quarks.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
02-23-2012, 12:56 AM
I would love to see a revamp of DS9, and the other major stations too, to be more in keeping with ESD, but with their own "feel" .

What I mean is, I'd like to see all the major facilities added into all the starbases, and be wall labeled and located, commanders officer, sick bay, shipyard, brokers, etc., and to have the space areas have multiple points of entry/departure, like ESD does. DS9 especially would benefit from having ships that spawn from beam-out appear at the lower pylons and around the docking ring.

Starfleet Academy and Klingon Academy should also have transporter rooms.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
02-23-2012, 01:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingdox View Post
Naw man, don't you know Cryptic is one of these companies that can just hire folks and have them put out stuff like in a week. I mean F2P has been here almost 40 days! I'm sure they are rolling in cash at this point.

I mean they gotta be able to redo everything that exists in the game that I don't like. Its not like they are busy keeping the servers online or in the middle of putting out weekly featured episodes.

Honestly it makes me wonder where some of these players work. Do their jobs not setup projects months in advance? My job is working on the road map for what our September will look like. Folks need to realize that if a Dev says its not on the schedule just let it go. Because even if they added some feature you're dying for chances it gets put at the end of the development queue that's has months of work already scheduled to be released.
Exactly.

A new employee takes a few months to learn the ins and outs of the game engine (and this game's systems) itself, then a few months for their content to get all the necessary departments to contribute, then weeks of Q/A from outside that primary group. Weeks of marketing will also be done in conjunction, to ensure that the roll-out is noticed too.

This is why companies like Bioware and Cryptic Studios had content in the pipeline before their respective MMO launches.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
02-23-2012, 05:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
E

This is why companies like Bioware and Cryptic Studios had content in the pipeline before their respective MMO launches.
Uh, you sure about that? I've been here since launch, we didn't get a lot of new content from them, a pvp map and some other things. in the beginning but not that much. TOR on the other hand, had and has content moving.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
02-23-2012, 06:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuui View Post
Uh, you sure about that? I've been here since launch, we didn't get a lot of new content from them, a pvp map and some other things. in the beginning but not that much. TOR on the other hand, had and has content moving.
if i remember rightly the game was rushed out due to CBS saying it will withdraw the contract if it wasnt. Also you have the ATARI incident where Cryptic was in a stranglehold and it is only now they have started to recover. what you have to think about though is that it takes time. everyone seems to have this idea that the moment it went Free to play that content would be spewing out but you have to train people you have so get the staff back and that all takes time. i am on the idea that the game wont really start back up properly until mid way through the year august September time
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
02-23-2012, 06:08 AM
OP: adding the rest of DS9 would be nice and add more wondering npc's make ds9 even more vibrant and alive as well. while most reviews about the conference room are good, i have an issue where the gorn attacks the jem'hadar and sometimes it lands on the floor where its supposed to and at other times, the jem'hadar gets knock backed and it has to walk to its location and drop dead...

there is alot of room for improvement still and the suits higher up should have some time put aside for the crew to rework and revamp parts of the game to make it even better.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
02-23-2012, 06:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander_Prescott
C'mon peeps. We don't have to take this down a dark alley. I was just watchin some DS9 and thought it would be nice to see Odo's Office. I was hoping to post here, get a Dev to notice, and maybe find out if it is even possible. If its something thats been asked before, then I apologize for opening old wounds. I just thought it would be cool thats all.
No worries dude. No, you're not the first to ask (Odo's, Infirmary, etc.) but you also won't be the last, by a long shot. I am fully in your camp. Ds9's Promenade bugs me in a fair number of ways right now. I would love to rebuild the whole thing from the ground up (salvaging elements that work decently), fixing it's scale, adding the Infirmary, adding the Security Office, rebuilding some of Quarks (getting rid of the stupid ramps), and hooking it up to the rest of the promenade without a clickie door.

And while that work would all be on me, and is fairly substantial in it's own right, the bigger, and more problematic task, is the work it creates for other people. Remember, it's not like Field of Dreams. I can build it, but they will not come (NPCs, pathing, etc.) All of the population would have to get moved around to match that. And not just on one map. There are actually like 3 or 4 separate Promenade maps, which serve different purposes for different missions, and ALL of them would require a pass by design, audio, and probably others I'm not thinking of.

"Silly Tacobrain. . . just kludge Odo's into the existing promenade!"

Well, ya, that is an option. . . but a crappy one in my book. I would rather do what I mentioned above, and have the whole thing be clean, and feel right, than try to just tack one or two missing parts onto the already existing (and broken) underlying structure.

So, with all that said, can this happen eventually? You bet. When will it happen? No clue. I would love to do it, but it's not on my plate at the moment.

Sorry to **** in your cornflakes Prescott.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkthunder View Post
Finite personnel and resources: Where are the facts on this? From everything Cryptic has been saying since the acquisition by PWE, it seems Cryptic is getting alot of financial support from PWE. Enough so, to start hiring people. "Limited personnel" should be a thing of the past, by that definition.
We are hiring, true. But hiring (and training people up) is a very slow process. And hiring doesn't mean that suddenly the dev team just doubled, it means we just got another new Environment guy (besides me), and they are looking to fill a couple/few more spots. Despite popular belief, there is not a flood of money/new hires on the dev side that I have seen. We're definitely seeing MORE support from PWE than we did from Atari (remember, under Atari we were in a hiring FREEZE for months), but more support does not mean instant change.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirror-Master
I'm sorry for trying to twist your arm with those examples but I was hoping to see a new champion for canon interiors like we've seen for other areas of the game. It was wrong of me to beat you over the head with it, however.

I also admit it is unfair of me or anyone to burden you to champion canon re-work or to ask you fix DS9 up on your own time. You've made it clear that you're not that guy so I'll leave it at that. Again, I was hoping to see the past repeated and some progress made in these areas. Please forgive my passion about fighting for canon artwork.
That's understandable, but I think there is a major flaw in your approach. You don't get a champion for a cause by pushing someone out in front of the pack and saying, "You, go. This is your thing and you better do it now."

My argument is that a champion (like Logan was for ships) has to sit around, and see how everything's working for a bit before deciding, on his own volition to take on the task. I was already on that track for DS9. TELLING ME that I SHOULD do so, and now telling me it's clear I'm not the guy, makes me want to rebel. Not because I don't believe in the cause, but because the cause is not in the forefront of my mind anymore. My rebellion is against someone telling me I SHOULD be doing something. No matter what that thing is, no matter how much I may have been into it before hand.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
02-23-2012, 06:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirror-Master
Basically, they don't care enough to put a DS9 revamp in the budget. Oh well.
I'm a huge advocate of revamping DS9, but I really don't want to be associated with that kind of attitude. IMO, the reasons it's impractical to do so at this time are completely valid. It's a bummer because I thought the DS9-centric Featured Episodes would have given us the best shot we're likely to see in a while, but when they say the didn't have the resources to prioritize the job, I believe them.

In the meantime, I will continue to politely discuss what I'd like to see at DS9 whenever the conversation comes up.
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