Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
03-01-2012, 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyell
The ody is a tank/healer/support. You're not comparing apples to apples here, you're comparing apples to a dead cow.
hahaha that line made my day
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
03-01-2012, 08:12 PM
I think you debunked his entire post.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyell
First of all, you do NOT get 250 deg arc with beams. With a beam boat you really only have 70 arc. Yes beams have 250, but the overlap of fore and aft only gives you that 70 deg where all you're weapon can fire, one on each side, meaning a total firing arc of 140 deg. As opposed to cannons, which have 180, which overlaps the entire 180 with the turrets. So 140 for beams, and 180 for cannons.




Ok, stop right there. It doesn't what my cannon/turret dps is. I have 3 tac consoles vs the 2 in an ody. That's an extra 26% damage, and a lance which the ody doesn't have. So the beams on an ody would have to do 26%+ more dps than cannons, and that just isn't possible.



You know, the fact that you just add up the base numbers and say you proved me wrong really frustrates me, because now I have write a giant wall of text to explain why. Like you completely ignore the fact that the dread has 3 tac consoles vs the 2 in an ody. But let's assume that we're talking about dread in both cases, the dragon vs mine.

So here we go...

When I say more dps, I mean total dps, which means I take into consideration abilities as well. For the example I'm going to use I will use 3 cannons + 4 turrets setup because DBB + BOL alone does 5k dps, which would give me considerably more dmg than the dragon.

1) raw damage:
BFAW increases your dps by 25% with 1.25 shots per sec instead of 1/sec. CRF increases dps by 30%, with 5 shots per sec

in 30 seconds:
1176 dps x 1.25 (BFaW) x 10 sec + 1176 dps x 1.25 (BFaW) x .1 (EPtW) x 5 + 1176 dps x 20 sec = 38,955 total damage done

vs

1110 dps x 1.3 (CRF) x 10 sec + 27 (DEM3) x 50 shots + 1110 dps x 20 sec + 27 (DEM3) x 40 shots = 39,060 total damage done.

Note 1: I did not include APbeta because it is a damage resist debuff, which means it only affect hulls, and I cannot say how much time within a 30 sec window you would have fighting someone without shields. In fact, most of the time people will have their shields up the whole time until just before they get blown up. However I did include the EPtW effect for 5 sec.

Note 2: I'm also assuming pvp since in pve I can mount DHC, which is more base dps. And since only in pvp do I need to run singles, that is what I will assume.

Note 3: At best the 2 does the same amount of dps. However BFaW spreads out the damage on several different targets, where as the cannons focus down an opponent. And in pvp you really do want to focus someone down rather than shooting a couple of shots off and some random tank or healer who can regen their shields.

Note 4: The dragon does not use DEM as my build does so I did not include it in the calculations. If he did use it, then it would 39,819. However, he would trading survivability for it.

2) Procs:
in 30 sec:
1.25 x 10 + 1 x 20 = 32.5 chances to proc the phaser effect

vs

5 x 10 + 2 x 20 = 90 chances to proc the phaser effect

With the same damage, I get 3 times the number of chances to proc an effect, which pretty much translates to 3 times the number of procs. Even if I had less dps (which i don't) the procs more than makes up for it.

I also want to point out that I'm always trying to face forward, and the dragon always wants to face broadside. This mean I get a chance to use my torps more often, which increases my overall dps.



No you didn't. You just added up some base dps numbers. It's not how the game works.



Again, it's not higher. At best it is the same.



Same thing... the math is up there...




Not using a feature on a ship is like cutting off your own leg, which i guess that guy in Saw was willing to do. Which begs the question do you even own a dread? Because if you don't even have one, why are you arguing about how bad my dread setup is?

And on a side note, my build is always trying to face forward, and never losses out on dps when I shoot the lance. As opposed to the dragon, which would lose about 1/2 its dps to shoot the lance. And like I said before, if you dont want the lance, use an assualt cruiser or the excelsior.

As I have said before, the ody only has 2 tac consoles, so there is no way it can out perform the dread in dps. Which makes me wonder why you bothered to post those base numbers anyway. I'm starting to get the feeling that you don't quite understand all the mechanics in the game. The ody is a tank/healer/support. You're not comparing apples to apples here, you're comparing apples to a dead cow.

And I don't "rely" on the lance. It is there to provide extra dps, and I use it as such.



Yes, easier to use arrays. Where cannons take significantly more effort (and sometimes skill) for a marginal gain. But for anyone who wants that slight gain, and is willing to put in the effort, can do so. If you want to be lazy, go for it. I get lazy often and just run out in my assualt cruiser with beams. But when I'm in the mood to play the dread, I burn people down pretty quick.



In pve the DHC can get face time on target near 100% of the time. And if YOU can't get 100% face time, then it is you, and/or your lack of skill with the dread; and not the ship itself. So in pve the DHC will out dps the dragon. In pvp, well I wrote a wall of text to explain that one.

Lastly, why are you so adament about someone elses build? You make sound as if you're the original author of the dragon build and my build has offended you in some way. WTF?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
03-02-2012, 10:18 AM
It doenst matter. This thread is only for Dread. So get out of here with Ody...you can talk about Ody with the C-Store variants.

I tried both builds (Cyrell and Dragon) over the last 2 days in Elite STF. Cyrells build is really better if you can face the enemy all the time. And thats the way i play. Because of our lance we have to face the enemy and not fly around them. Like other cruisers.

But if you fly around the target Dragons Build is a little better. No compare if you face the enemy with cyrells build, its more deadly and very impressive

So my opinion in STF.

If you fly around -> Dragons build
Face the enemy -> Cyrells build

I dont test PvP because this thread is about Elite STF.

And last but not least.

I thought Dragons build is for PvP only? I cant see anything of Elite STF in his build. So there is no compare at all with both builds. Keep that in mind!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
03-02-2012, 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyell

And I don't "rely" on the lance. It is there to provide extra dps, and I use it as such.

In pve the DHC can get face time on target near 100% of the time. And if YOU can't get 100% face time, then it is you, and/or your lack of skill with the dread; and not the ship itself. So in pve the DHC will out dps the dragon. In pvp, well I wrote a wall of text to explain that one.
You can't really rely on the lance imo, because it has 3-4min cool down. A lot can happen in 3-4 minutes.

Face time with Cyell's build once you learn how is easy. I got two duffs that reduce cool down on evasive maneuvers, and so I just hit that and go in reverse to get a quick 180.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
My Odyssey often survives that torpedo. Granted only on about 3 to 5% hull but as long as I heal fast and do not get hit while low I can survive.
I've actually figured out how to make out with a tac cube and live. O_O Seriously just have to time it right. decloaking right next to it and firing crf1 and hy1. You hit all damage buffs you have, then EPtS. Once it starts hitting you press tac team. once those ten seconds are up you hit the reverse polarity buff. Then if you see plasma hit hull heals. I survive with 81% health and then I hit EPtS again with TT1. I've also hit the one ability that cuts everyone's ability timer in half. Hit eject warp plasma too, and repeat. Also Shield batteries were used too. Those heavy plasma torps did more damage to the tac than me, and with everyone else firing at it while it was targeting me it died before I did.

Earlier today I did Elite Khitomer Accord, and I took out 3 cubes by myself, helped with 1 and rode a tac cube till it was dead. I died only once on the last cube because I forgot to use evasive maneuvers to escape the exploding cube.

Also I've edited the build a bit, and I'm using a quantum and a Hargh'peng Torpedo Launcher that is MK11. Replayed the mission as a Vice Admiral to get MK11. Its radiation causes havok with Borg. lol.

P.S. Riding a Tac cube is hard, you have to hit buffs on time, and a Tac Cube doesn't forgive mistakes. I've ridden 4 successfully out of 30 tries this week. It also helps if you team has medium to high dps so you don't have to be focused for so long. Also if all your abilities are on cooldown run away from tac cube, and come back when the cooldowns are done.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
03-02-2012, 06:20 PM
Well I'm glad other people enjoy using the build, and just wanted to add 1 more thing. I have 2 purple conn officers (doff) and 1 blue. My evasive only has a 16 sec CD, which is amazing. The other 2 space doffs are blue shield distribution doffs, each giving a 40% chance to regen shields (each, and the stack) when you're hit after poping brace for impact. I have since added BFI to my regular shield heal rotation.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
03-05-2012, 11:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyell
Well I'm glad other people enjoy using the build, and just wanted to add 1 more thing. I have 2 purple conn officers (doff) and 1 blue. My evasive only has a 16 sec CD, which is amazing. The other 2 space doffs are blue shield distribution doffs, each giving a 40% chance to regen shields (each, and the stack) when you're hit after poping brace for impact. I have since added BFI to my regular shield heal rotation.
Thanks again for the help sir, appreciate it o7
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
03-08-2012, 08:19 PM
Well, I decided to give this build a try. Normally I fly a Defiant-R, which I usually plant myself in front of my target and let go. So I thought this build would suit my play style. I did change it up a notch and swapped out one of my cannons with quads.

All I can say is WOW! Of all the times I ran Khitomer Accord, I have never had Donatra so ****ed at me. After my first volley, she turned her attention toward me in a heart beat and never took her target off me.

My only problem is the lul time between CRF's, other than that I found the build very enjoyable. Nice work Cyell!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
03-08-2012, 09:17 PM
Glad to hear others are enjoying the build. I just wanted to point out, and give credit where it is due, the original concept came from Hakaishin's (spelling?) pvp dread build; to which I modified a bit with some personal preferences for a good balance between pvp and pve needs so it can kill two birds with one stone.
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