Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
02-27-2012, 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzun View Post
I doubt that Spacedock is at any Earth/Month Lagrangian point. L2 which would be the closest one to the Earth is a lot closer to the Moon than the Earth. All of the movie and TV depictions of Spacedock has it fairly close to Earth. It's supposed to be easily visible from eh surface of the planet.
Distance is harder to judge in space, as there's nothing in between to help keep perspective on the relative size of the objects. A Lagrange point makes more sense, mechanically, and is still close enough to make for easy shuttle travel.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
02-27-2012, 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron
Realistic even the Enterprise D Saucer crash would cause severe damage to the planet ecosystem, the EDS crashing into Earth would far, far, far worst that of what killed the dinosaurs (especially if its reactor goes off).

I suppose that is why they just are not afraid, even a Frigate crashing into Earth would be Extinction Event due to its reactor going off, this is a case if you are that afraid of technology you would better off destroying it all and go back living in caves.
The actual affect of ESD "crashing into earth" would depend on the angle of decent , whether or not it breaks up, how much of it survives re-entry, and where it hits. Those are all variables and the actual effect could range from it burning up in the atmosphere to something catastrophic.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, all space stations in Star Trek have fusion reactors, which means that there would not be too much concern about, "its reactor going off" since the chemical energy stored in Deuterium is a tiny, tiny fraction of the total potential energy of a large spacecraft orbiting a planet.

Antimatter reactors would be a different story. According to various canon sources, the maximum power output of a Galaxy Class starship is about 10 billion gigawatts. If we assume that it has enough energy in Antimatter alone to sustain that output for five years straight, we are talking about billions of megatons of explosive power, which unlike the nuclear reactors on ESD, could do quite a bit of damage to the planet, maybe even destroy Earth (I know little about geology).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
02-27-2012, 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzun View Post
I doubt that Spacedock is at any Earth/Month Lagrangian point. L2 which would be the closest one to the Earth is a lot closer to the Moon than the Earth. All of the movie and TV depictions of Spacedock has it fairly close to Earth. It's supposed to be easily visible from eh surface of the planet.

Another limit on the location of Spacedock is that it has to be within transporter distance of the surface of the Earth. The TOS series has the maximum range of the transporter as 40,000 kilometers. Geosynchronous order for Earth of 35,700 kilometers. Based on taht I would say it's a safe bet that ESD in Geosynchronous Orbit. That's well above the low obit atmospheric drag. Should be easy enough to keep it in place with just thrusters.
You mean L1, L2 is on the opposite side of the moon.

But yes its in a geostationary / sychronous orbit. And looks to be somewhere above the North American West Coast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amosov
No real idea since any screenshots of ESD doesn't really show you which continent it is above, however it's likely that San Francisco Fleet Yards might actually be situated above San Francisco, if so ESD would probably be elsewhere in orbit.

Speaking of orbital yards, there's also the Luna Shipyards and McKinley Station that are missing currently.
I like to think the station next to ESD is the new McKinley station, since the old one can be stated to been destroyed in the Breen attack on Earth. (After all Drydocks would be a high prority target to cripple Federation shipbuilding).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
Earth rotates to it's east. Counter Clockwise when viewed from above the north pole.

We can see the ISS from the ground. ESD is significantly larger than that, and despite being further away, I think it would still be pretty clearly visible. Maybe you couldn't make out the shape of it, but it would at the very least appear to be a bright 'star' like Venus and Jupiter are in our evening sky now.

I'd argue that the San Francisco Fleet Yards, Luna Yards, and McKinley Station are not missing, but simply not visible at those distances. In the grand scheme of things, drydocks are very small, and mostly negative space.

ETA: Also, at full impulse, the trip from SFA to Paris would be pretty negligible. Not to mention that transporters have a range far out reaching the diameter of earth.
From the ground, ESD would likely be the third brightest object in the sky after the Sun and the moon (somewhere around -10 magnitude) with the size probably be like 1/5th the size of the moon. So it would be large enough to notice the mushroom cap with the naked eye, but not the various details on the station.

The other space stations would be bright stars in the sky (2 or 3 magnitude) and drydocks (with ships) being around 6th magnitude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TFR_MACO_Specialist
In respect of the dangers of having such a large object positioned over a population centre this is a moot point because if it were destroyed or even if it's orbit was uncontrollably decaying it would not fall straight down onto the landmass below. The decay curve would be based on many variables and as such it could impact the earth almost anywhere depending on the factors that caused the orbital decay in the first place.

Secondly aerodynamics make no difference in space, only once sufficient atmospheric drag is encountered, even then with such a high mass object any protrusions that would normally affect areodynamic stability would be very quickly vaporised by atmospheric friction and simply become part of the ablation trail.
But you are correct that the fragments would take a very long time for the orbit to decay and reach the Earth. Likely take decades for the larger pieces to hit the Earth, so there is plenty of time for Starfleet to save the day.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
02-27-2012, 03:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzun View Post
I doubt that Spacedock is at any Earth/Month Lagrangian point. L2 which would be the closest one to the Earth is a lot closer to the Moon than the Earth. All of the movie and TV depictions of Spacedock has it fairly close to Earth. It's supposed to be easily visible from eh surface of the planet.

Another limit on the location of Spacedock is that it has to be within transporter distance of the surface of the Earth. The TOS series has the maximum range of the transporter as 40,000 kilometers. Geosynchronous order for Earth of 35,700 kilometers. Based on taht I would say it's a safe bet that ESD in Geosynchronous Orbit. That's well above the low obit atmospheric drag. Should be easy enough to keep it in place with just thrusters.

I'm not an expert, but wouldn't L2 be past the Moon making L1 the closest to Earth? L1 would still be closer to the moon then Earth though.

I would concur that its very unlikely that ESD is at any Lagrange Point simply by the shots we've seen of it indicate its way too close to Earth. Google for images of the Earth from the Moon to get a quick Idea of how tiny Earth would look from ESD if it was at a L Point.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
02-27-2012, 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakarak
The actual affect of ESD "crashing into earth" would depend on the angle of decent , whether or not it breaks up, how much of it survives re-entry, and where it hits. Those are all variables and the actual effect could range from it burning up in the atmosphere to something catastrophic.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, all space stations in Star Trek have fusion reactors, which means that there would not be too much concern about, "its reactor going off" since the chemical energy stored in Deuterium is a tiny, tiny fraction of the total potential energy of a large spacecraft orbiting a planet.

Antimatter reactors would be a different story. According to various canon sources, the maximum power output of a Galaxy Class starship is about 10 billion gigawatts. If we assume that it has enough energy in Antimatter alone to sustain that output for five years straight, we are talking about billions of megatons of explosive power, which unlike the nuclear reactors on ESD, could do quite a bit of damage to the planet, maybe even destroy Earth (I know little about geology).
Based on your figure, it would take the full potential of 225,000 billion Galaxy class vessels released simultaneously to vaporize the Earth. Probably a lot less to render it uninhabitable. Or you could just have one shuttle crash into it at warp speed.

Here's a good article on how to destroy the earth:
http://www.deepastronomy.com/how-to-...offee-can.html
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
02-27-2012, 03:17 PM
I would just love it if they added the day night cycle to SF Academy, period. I'm really loving the amount of detail put into Bajor and would love it applied more universally even though it's a lot of work.

Nice job on Bajor, Cryptic!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
02-27-2012, 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
I think the Federation President's office should be relocated from France to Beijing.

Y'Know... With Cryptic practically being in San Francisco... And their old publisher being based in France (albeit 300 miles from Paris)... I think it would be coy. And it would allow for the Fed President's office to possibly have a more diverse feel if they ever add it. I know several of our artists (Logan included) have a fascination with Southeast Asian architecture.
As the Federation President isn't always a Human of Earth, the Earth's Governor (most Federation worlds seem to have one of those) and/or Council Representative must reside somewhere distinguished? I could buy Beijing. Would be great to have both settings considered for Foundry writer's who want to tell Federation stories beyond Starfleet missions.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
02-27-2012, 05:41 PM
"Vulcan has no moon....."

*Scene from Star Trek, the motion picture"

"Meanwhile back on planet Vulcan" *With a moon taking up 2/3's of the screen*
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
02-27-2012, 06:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenor-Nyiad View Post
"Vulcan has no moon....."

*Scene from Star Trek, the motion picture"

"Meanwhile back on planet Vulcan" *With a moon taking up 2/3's of the screen*
Silly. Abrams was the only one to get that detail correct. Spock Prime on a planet called Delta Vega (which was moved by the [Plot Device - Universal Console] across the Federation for the purpose of the movie. With a moon-sized view of the disintegrating planet Vulcan in the sky overhead. :p See? Vulcan really doesn't have a moon.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
02-27-2012, 06:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
Based on your figure, it would take the full potential of 225,000 billion Galaxy class vessels released simultaneously to vaporize the Earth. Probably a lot less to render it uninhabitable. Or you could just have one shuttle crash into it at warp speed.

Here's a good article on how to destroy the earth:
http://www.deepastronomy.com/how-to-...offee-can.html
Did you work that out? I was going to but couldn't be bothered in the end LOL

Yes people have little appreciation of the unbelievable force behind a 6 mile wide asteroid made of most probably stone and iron with an iron core travelling at at least 40Km/sec has, 2 million times more energy than the largest bomb ever detonated on the Earth. Think about that, 2 million times more, it's beyond imagination, enough to scoop out a crater 10 miles deep and 100 miles across with ease, tsunami's several km high, and enough ejecta to fill the atmosphere for years, maybe decades.

As for a shuttle at warp, you have to remember that according to the theory the ship is encased within a warp bubble, an area of sub-space, or if you like an interdimensional corrider through normal spacetime. Any spacecraft at warp would travel right through the middle of any object in it's path because it doesn't travel through space, it pushes space apart at the quantum level and it knits itself back up behind the bubble, that's one interpretation anyway. The main deflector dish should only be necessary for sub super luminal velocities to ensure that interstellar particles do not impact the spacecraft whilst actually travelling through space. once at warp, particulate impactors are negated by the warp bubble/field.

Oh and there are a couple of glaring mistakes in that article you quoted, Plank time is actually 10 -43 sec and the photo must be of something with an equal vacuum potential, perhaps the inside of any politician's skull would do
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