Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
02-26-2012, 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kermitgb View Post
some guy was complaining about tac captains that bring in cruisers - and he was being a bit of a jerk about it, but he brought up one interesting point that got me rethinking - he said most tac captains (and he may have been exaggerating on quantity, but the point is still good) try to fly cruisers like they're escorts - high outgoing dps and maneuverability, and the ships simply CANNOT work that way
This is an interesting statement. I traditionally use a cruiser on my engineer and a tac. Normally, I am going into battle at half impulse and tank my way through a fight. Then I read several comments in chat that you should keep your impulse speed at full and only reduce to turn. The conversation was about cruisers. So I started to try this out. Although, enemy fire did miss me more, I often found my self moving out of the battle area before I coudl turn back in. This could be me, and I need to work on turning. However, after your comment above, it got me thinking that those who try to fly a cruiser like an escort may be doing the same thing. I think cruisers behave better at half impulse and just absorb the damage. I am still playing around with tactics and may have a different opinion tomorrow, but that is what I am experiencing today.

Note: I PVE and do not PVP. I do recognize that PVP requires different tactics to be successful.
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# 12
02-26-2012, 10:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kermitgb View Post
high outgoing dps and maneuverability, and the ships simply CANNOT work that way

and, regardless of his attitude, he might be right - I'm not actually trying to fly escort dps in a cruiser - i'm just looking for a cruiser with good survivability (cuz thats what cruisers do, right?) while trying to eek the best dps I can out of the ships assigned set-up
First off, that guys is absolutely right about not flying a cruiser like an escort. If you you try to manuver it like an escort you will likely fail.

However, what he got wrong is that if you're tac in a cruiser you're NOT trying to do heavy dps and manuver. Instead you are doing high dps and pseudo tank. Meaning that instead of running away when targeted, you simply keep shooting and tank the incoming damage.

And honestly any of the cruisers do this well enough, even the excelsior-R. The ex-R is just able to point and shoot a little faster, but instead you have to watch you hull a bit closer than than the dread for example, but either will work fine.

Case in point - many people in my fleet have a full set of mk12 gear, and we do elite stf's together. And there is usually 2 escorts, as well as my dread. The tac cube at the start of KA and end of infected, as well as the carrier and donatra will always target me within 20-30sec. And since I don't have star ship threat control, that means I generate more threat than the escorts do through pure dps.

Now, on the other hand, when we kill probes, the escorts can each take down 3 probes faster than I can take down 2 since they have more AoE abilities. But single target I'm sure I so at least as much as they do, and likely more.

Oh and I don't have to run away as much as they do, or die as often. Again, it all depends on you're setup and skill with the ship you're using. I am very keen on a particular setup for cruiser (especially for dread) and I can post it if you're interested.
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# 13
02-26-2012, 02:21 PM
Thank you all - and yes, Cyell, I've been tracking several cruiser dps build threads, and I've seen your build, as well as your indirect conflict with the "dragon build" guy as well

I'm still very, very...iffy...about giving up the beam-boat for the cannon-build, and I'm weighing the various threads and posts I see very carefully

I experimented briefly with a cannon/turret build when I was flying my galaxy class cruiser tier - and it seemed...all right - but there was some serious question from people's who opinions I trust, as to whether the turret/cannon output could equal the consistency/reliability of the beam boat - when I have the freedom of time/resources, I'll pick up a dreadnought and experiment with the cannon style boat (cuz it does sound intriguing), as I have relatively limited resources at the moment (basically, if I want dreadnought or excelsior refit, I'm dropping a wad of c-points, and I'm not gonna do it again soon) I'm hoping to try and pick a winner my first time round - this, of course, makes the odyssey even more attractive, as I got it for free

in short, I *do* pick a dreadnought, AND decide to go with a cannon build, I'm looking at a significant re-investment of resources, as it'll cost me a ton of EC's, dilithium AND/OR time farming missions to re-outfit a heavy cannon build cruiser - and I *still* get strong advice to the contrary, which makes it a very...dicey...proposition. But I have appreciated all your input so far, and you do make a compelling case for a well outfitted dreadnought.
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# 14
02-26-2012, 03:17 PM
Well if you're weary of paying for a dread or excel, then just go with the assualt cruiser. I'm not sure if you were talking about using cash to get c points, or just dilithium, but using up some dilithium for a new ship isn't that bad (dilithium > cpoints > dread/excel).

And honestly you'll likely not be able to pick up either an excel or dread and call it a winner. They're both dps cruisers, but play very differently. And there are good and bad to both, so if you get either it'll feel like you won 2nd place because neither is perfect.

Anyway, with just the standard ships, the assualt will out perform the ody by leaps and bounds. The reason for it is because in stf's and especially in elite stfs dps is really all that matters (assuming you're group knows what they're doing). So the tanking/support abilities the ody offers isn't as useful.

In que'd pvp they both have roles that they can perform, although you generall need to kill someone rather than not die in pvp, so i would still prefer the assualt.
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# 15
02-26-2012, 04:21 PM
Well I use a Vor'cha occasionally with my KDC tac, and that works fine. It's a little trickier Fed side because you can't mount DHC. But, with the Excelsior, CRF2 or BO3 are both available, as is APO1. I've been experimenting with various takes on the single cannon/turret concept on Excelsiors, and it's seemed to do well in PVP so far, although I'll have to keep testing to make sure.

Another often over looked benefit of the tac in a cruiser is the enhanced utility of "Go down fighting". With a cruiser, you can sit at <50% health far more comfortably than you can in an escort, and the boost to your damage increases with the damage your ship's taken. I don't recall precisely how it scales, but it boosts your damage by 25% when your ships at full health, and can go way over that when you get below 50% or 25%. I've been experimenting with a rope-a-dope style strategy, allowing damage then hitting RSP1 and resuming shield tanking, it's a little risky but it's paid off a few times now.

I may experiment with the Oddysey for my tac too, but so far I've yet to see a tac do well in one. This is both as a wingman and preying on them in the BoP and Vor'cha.
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# 16
02-26-2012, 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebeneezergoode
Well I use a Vor'cha occasionally with my KDC tac, and that works fine. It's a little trickier Fed side because you can't mount DHC. But, with the Excelsior, CRF2 or BO3 are both available, as is APO1. I've been experimenting with various takes on the single cannon/turret concept on Excelsiors, and it's seemed to do well in PVP so far, although I'll have to keep testing to make sure.

Another often over looked benefit of the tac in a cruiser is the enhanced utility of "Go down fighting". With a cruiser, you can sit at <50% health far more comfortably than you can in an escort, and the boost to your damage increases with the damage your ship's taken. I don't recall precisely how it scales, but it boosts your damage by 25% when your ships at full health, and can go way over that when you get below 50% or 25%. I've been experimenting with a rope-a-dope style strategy, allowing damage then hitting RSP1 and resuming shield tanking, it's a little risky but it's paid off a few times now.

I may experiment with the Oddysey for my tac too, but so far I've yet to see a tac do well in one. This is both as a wingman and preying on them in the BoP and Vor'cha.
well you actually can mount DHC with a dread.
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# 17
02-26-2012, 05:23 PM
My opinion only, but if you are a tac and want to fly a cruiser, the only choice is the Excelsior. This forum thread is required reading: http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=190645

If you are going to be running STFs, take an escort.

In order to use both ships effectively, you will almost certainly need some different BOffs for each.
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# 18
02-26-2012, 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrustyMac View Post
My opinion only, but if you are a tac and want to fly a cruiser, the only choice is the Excelsior. This forum thread is required reading: http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=190645

If you are going to be running STFs, take an escort.

In order to use both ships effectively, you will almost certainly need some different BOffs for each.
that thread is a bit outdated, and a lot of the info there isn't updated. but more importantly, I don't see the "only choice is the excel" part. The assualt and dread can both perform just as well as the excel. And in stf i can do as much dps as an escort with my dread, so I'm not sure why anyone should take an escort instead.
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# 19
02-27-2012, 03:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyell
Oh and I don't have to run away as much as they do, or die as often. Again, it all depends on you're setup and skill with the ship you're using. I am very keen on a particular setup for cruiser (especially for dread) and I can post it if you're interested.
Eng captain here, and new to the thread, but even if the previous posters aren't interested, I'm always happy to take a look at a good cruiser build, particularly the AC if you have it, but I'm also happy to look at a Dread build. I chafe at the idea that cruisers are not good for much other than getting shot and throwing heals.
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# 20
02-27-2012, 04:50 AM
Woo to the cruisers that don't deal decent dps in stf elite. Your chance of getting prototype borg tech salvage is...nonexistent.

STF prototype borg tech salvage is given to [with the best chance] to the biggest damage dealer(my assumption is the most damage dealer to the boss)
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