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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Just for those of us who WANT to tank or heal. I don't want to change anyone else's gaming experience against their will, but this is an MMO, its also now F2P, which means its going to rapidly grow and attract other players who expect and enjoy their MMOs to work under this system. I know there are lots who do, I've been talking to them recently on these very forums myself.

I was born to tank. It's what I do. I'm very good at it too. It kills me that in order to be the best I can be I have to fly an escort because anything else is suboptimal in endgame.

Here's my solution so that the gameplay does not change for those who do not want it to change...

Keep Normal and Elite difficulties as they are, there will be too much crying if you start trying to change those now. Instead implement a 'Hardcore' or 'Legendary' - call it what you want, difficulty level in which the damage of enemies and the damage reduction of player ships is scaled and tuned to require a cruiser to at least SOMETIMES take the spike damage for the team, and a sci vessel to at least SOMETIMES have to cc something or heal a party member. I'm not talking about designing fights which require specific gear or even talent builds, just to require occasionally some interaction between players. Neither am I suggesting that if you fly a sci ship, all you should do is heal and cc. Not at all. But should you have to do it sometimes? When the fight requires it? When your TEAM needs you to do it? Yes, in my opinion.

The trinity is already implemented in this game, just not used. Sci ships are control and healing, cruisers are tanks, and escorts are DPS. Nobody can argue this. So let's encourage Cryptic to create some content that needs and defines those roles.

I'm not suggesting Cryptic drop working on solo content or bugs in order to do this, I'm not expecting it to be implemented tomorrow, I just want to sow the seed. To make people think...Hm, how WOULD the game be if I actually had a role to play...maybe I'd like it to lead the charge as a tank and take the big hits while protecting my allies...there's a lot of fun and satisfaction in the playstyle, and I'd like to see at least some of that in STO, because the silent 'kill stuff in this order' doesn't do it for me. ONCE AGAIN, and for complete clarification, I do not want to change the experience for those who enjoy the game as it is now. Make the new content an additional tier or difficulty level so it doesn't affect anyone who doesn't want to be affected.

Make the queues so that people select a role, either support, damage or control, and when the moment comes for the cruiser to shine, he can mark a target to die and tank it to bits while the healer gravity wells the adds, keeps the tank up and beam overload's the boss and the DPS shoot fiery laser death while not standing in the fire.

Please tell me there are some who share this vision of your career and commission choice actually mattering, and relish even the RP opportunities it would represent?

Mods, I promise this will be the last new topic I create that relates in any way to endgame raid mechanics, this is the one thread to rule them all, and that's why it has a catchy provocative title, cos some people are going to start puking hate on their keyboards the second they see the word Trinity, and start frothing at the mouth. If you are one of those, this thread isn't for you, since your gameplay experience won't change as a result of this.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
03-01-2012, 08:36 AM
I originally didn't want the Trinity in the game, but I've now come to the conclusion that it should be implemented for STFs. Since you are forced to team in the STFs it makes more sense that each Class should have a purpose in them. Right now the STFs are entirely damage-centric. 5 Escorts can defeat them, but 5 Cruisers or Science Vessels cannot. Requiring the Trinity would give each ship Class a purpose, and keep Sci and Eng Captains simply using Escorts in the STFs, IMO.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
03-01-2012, 08:41 AM
I am honored and gratified, not only that the first response is a positive one, but also that it is from you, Cosmic, a forum frequenter whom I respect greatly.

May I disagree on one aspect however, that is that I have witnessed 5 offensively specced sci ships complete the optional on elite, it's on youtube somewhere. But in any case, that only reinforces what we're saying, that while 5 escorts is optimal, and that alone is bad, any group makeup can do it, which further renders roles irrelevant in the current implementation.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
03-01-2012, 08:43 AM
Why force any roles on players? There's nothing to stop you from choosing your role when you play with a team.

As for having to fly escorts at end game - why? I fly a science ship, I know many who fly cruisers...

Different roles are necessary in this game for Elite STFs as well as group PvP. For instance, you need a good healer in Cure Space (babysit the Kang) and a good cc in KA (handle the probes). And in PvP - your team will be much more successful if it consists of different roles and everyone knows his place.

The way I see it STO's system is much richer than simple trinity. You have choices for your career, your skill tree, your BOff abilities and your ship. You can play around with them and assume different roles, and even within the same role you can have various "flavors". A Sci ship is not necessarily the best healer - cruisers are very effective for healing purposes. Put an Engineer on a Sci ship and you can get such a very high survivability, which makes it an interesting choice for tanking purposes. An Engineer or Scientist on an escort with torpedo spread, cannon scatter volley, eject warp plasma and various other skills (e.g. Sci native SNB & photonic fleet) can make in interesting cc due to it's high maneuverability. As for DPS - an escort is a natural choice, but on the other hand cruisers can have massive broadside attacks and have much greater power supply (with the right skills) and their slow turn rate can be mediated by attack pattern alpha, evasive maneuvers, the right gear ([turn] engines, the omega set and RCS accelerators) and the right skills (e.g. impulse thrusters).

I really see no need to "lock" the player to a narrow preconception about the trinity-role of each vessel/career.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
03-01-2012, 08:46 AM
Well what do you say to players who are tacts in cruisers? sci's in escorts? The trinity does not work in those instances as well. The new skill tree has made it possible for a Captain to be a true captain not stuck in a particular ship due to having to spec into say a cruiser if your a tact and the respecting into an escort if you want to fly one. I think what needs to happen is a return to the healing and tanking closer to season past.
That's the real problem the healing and tanking has been drastically cut and the DPS has been increased.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
03-01-2012, 08:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf-de-Lyon
Why force any roles on players? There's nothing to stop you from choosing your role when you play with a team.

As for having to fly escorts at end game - why? I fly a science ship, I know many who fly cruisers...

Different roles are necessary in this game for Elite STFs as well as group PvP. For instance, you need a good healer in Cure Space (babysit the Kang) and a good cc in KA (handle the probes). And in PvP - your team will be much more successful if it consists of different roles and everyone knows his place.

The way I see it STO's system is much richer than simple trinity. You have choices for your career, your skill tree, your BOff abilities and your ship. You can play around with them and assume different roles, and even within the same role you can have various "flavors". A Sci ship is not necessarily the best healer - cruisers are very effective for healing purposes. Put an Engineer on a Sci ship and you can get such a very high survivability, which makes it an interesting choice for tanking purposes. An Engineer or Scientist on an escort with torpedo spread, cannon scatter volley, eject warp plasma and various other skills (e.g. Sci native SNB & photonic fleet) can make in interesting cc due to it's high maneuverability. As for DPS - an escort is a natural choice, but on the other hand cruisers can have massive broadside attacks and have much greater power supply (with the right skills) and their slow turn rate can be mediated by attack pattern alpha, evasive maneuvers, the right gear ([turn] engines, the omega set and RCS accelerators) and the right skills (e.g. impulse thrusters).

I really see no need to "lock" the player to a narrow preconception about the trinity-role of each vessel/career.
You did not read my post.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
03-01-2012, 08:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Enterprise_J
Well what do you say to players who are tacts in cruisers? sci's in escorts? The trinity does not work in those instances as well. The new skill tree has made it possible for a Captain to be a true captain not stuck in a particular ship due to having to spec into say a cruiser if your a tact and the respecting into an escort if you want to fly one. I think what needs to happen is a return to the healing and tanking closer to season past.
That's the real problem the healing and tanking has been drastically cut and the DPS has been increased.
You did not read my post either.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
03-01-2012, 08:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Enterprise_J
im lost what the Trinity?????? and What kind of build are you using thats causing you not to able to tank well???
Trinity = tank, dps, heal

1 Tank + 1 Healer + 3 DPS = generic MMO format

Quote:
its going to rapidly grow and attract other players who expect and enjoy their MMOs to work under this system. I know there are lots who do, I've been talking to them recently on these very forums myself.
My response is simple. Please break the habit of assuming that all games must function the same. Using a "holy trinity" system is frankly archaic at this point in time. Technology has developed beyond such cut and dry roles.

Beyond that, it is possible to play support roles in this game already. Depending on how you set yourself up, you can do well as support too. Please don't water the system down and add hurdles that don't need to exist by adding mandatory roles.

The problem with pure support classes is that they do not work. If you make the content too powerful, support becomes mandatory and expected. If you make the content too weak, then support classes are unneeded and obsolete. There is no middle ground other than to break the trinity. The existing system is fine.

Just my opinion.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
03-01-2012, 08:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerithlan

My response is simple. Please break the habit of assuming that all games must function the same. Using a "holy trinity" system is frankly archaic at this point in time. Technology has developed beyond such cut and dry roles.
I don't see how you can say that and I disagree. I'm not trying to homogenise games. Or do you think that STO is already like WoW or some other MMO because it has a bank and a guild in it? The fact that you are represented as a player and as a spaceship already removes any illusion that this game is copying something else. The trinity works, and I disagree that it's archaic, and defy you to point out technology that has changed this?
Quote:
Beyond that, it is possible to play support roles in this game already. Depending on how you set yourself up, you can do well as support too. Please don't water the system down and add hurdles that don't need to exist by adding mandatory roles.
It's possible, it's not optimal or needed though. By not flying an escort you are doing only one thing. Slowing down the completion of objectives. There is no reason whatsoever to bring any other type of ship. You gain nothing by bringing a cruiser or a sci ship to an Elite STF. If they implement votekicking, I bet the first thing that happens is kicking of non-escorts.

Quote:
The problem with pure support classes is that they do not work. If you make the content too powerful, support becomes mandatory and expected. If you make the content too weak, then support classes are unneeded and obsolete. There is no middle ground other than to break the trinity. The existing system is fine.

Just my opinion.
You did not read my post properly. I'm not locking anyone into anything, and I agree the existing system is fine (for some people), I don't want to change it (for them).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
03-01-2012, 08:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic_One View Post
5 Escorts can defeat them, but 5 Cruisers or Science Vessels cannot. Requiring the Trinity would give each ship Class a purpose, and keep Sci and Eng Captains simply using Escorts in the STFs, IMO.
I've seen 5 escorts fail miserably in Elite STFs, and I've beaten all Space STFs except Cure Elite with teams of Sci and Cruisers (no escorts). KA and Infected are really not so difficult if you know what you're doing. The only problem we had with the no-escort run of the Cure is that we did not have a healer for the Kang, but I did hear of some no-escort runs that beat it.

What would be nice is to have optional objectives based on careers (like in the FE) and ship types that make missions (or STFs) easier. A good example is the mission "what lies beneath" where engineers can fix a door, sci can stop the lethal plasma flow and tactical can eliminate an enemy group beforehand. All these things are not necessary, but make the mission simpler.
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