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# 1 Lakota vs Defiant.
09-06-2010, 12:02 AM
Most people say this was a toe to toe battle. However... it was not.


The Lakota was a massively refit Excelsior class ships with more powerful phasers and Quantum torpedoes. It may have had more systems upgraded but that's all we know for sure.

The Defiant is a ship that relies on it's maneuverability and massive firepower. It's cannons can rip through shields and it can dodge most incoming torpedoes and many phaser attacks.


Lets look at the battle...

For the whole first minute the Defiant does not attack back. They don't take any major evasive actions. They just let themselves get hit several times by the Lakota's upgraded phasers.
So basically the Lakota is getting half a dozen (by my count) free phaser hits before the Defiant decides to fight back.

At this point they start exchanging blows. The Lakota takes the cannons however most seem to not be direct hits, often missing entirely as if the Defiant didn't actually want to shoot them (because they didn't).
All of the visible Lakota phaser beams hit and they just keep coming. The Defiant fires a single torpedo that we can see.

After the scene with the Admiral and Sisko (with the battle still going on) the Defiant crew talked about the current standings of the battle. The Defiant was badly damaged however as Kira put it "They're in worse shape. One good hit would probably finish them".

Basically after taking a minute's worth of free hits the Defiant is still apparently winning.

Also the Defiant had 2 dead, 7 badly injured. The Lakota as many as 24 casualties. Again, the Lakota is losing.



In short:
Lakota rams on the Defiant for a minute of free hits.
Lakota still in the worst shape and still would probably lose.



Now you could point out that both ships had Quantums but it would appear neither used them. We only saw one torpedo and it was a normal one.

Also you can say that we didn't see several minutes of the battle because of the Sisko scenes. However... I'll just go by what I do see. Anything said about those couple minutes could be just that, anything said. You could say that the Defiant just unloaded their whole compliment of Quantums on the Lakota. Personally I doubt that since they didn't want to destroy the Lakota and there's no evidence.



Basically the end result is a stronger Excelsior-class ship. It's surely a lot tougher than the older Excelsiors but still not up to par with the Defiant. If I were to put it in STO terms I'd say it would be a tier or two lower .

It was hardly toe to toe. Though the Excelsior did put up a decent fight. I'd suggest everyone watch these scenes again.
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# 2
09-06-2010, 02:48 AM
Don't forget that battle was again one of the story writters want this to happen stuff.

ships often where a lot stronger or weaker when the story writers damned such and hence it is a royal pain in the ass to truely determine their strenghts.
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# 3
09-06-2010, 03:13 AM
well, it was toe to toe, ONLY because the defiant was holding back, they didn't want to destroy the Lakota, however, the crew of the Lakota were going all out to destroy the defiant. The Defiant wasn't going for the weak points.

But, as Liandras said, if they wanted the Lakota to win, the writers could have easily done it. The hero ship always wins in the writers eyes.

Oh, and the Excelsior does belong in the tier it is in, simply because it is according to Cryptic, an Advanced Heavy Cruiser.
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# 4
09-06-2010, 04:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momiji View Post
however, the crew of the Lakota were going all out to destroy the defiant.
we actually dont know that for sure, captain benteen seamed to have an idea what was going on and refused to use the quantum torpedoes

also different crews have an effect on the battle. put the defiant crew in the lakota and maybe things would have been different

put the TNG crew in the lakota and ds9 in the defiant and then you would have a fight
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# 5
09-06-2010, 04:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Revo
we actually dont know that for sure, captain between seamed to have an idea what was going on and refused to use the quantum torpedoes

also different crews have an effect on the battle. put the defiant crew in the lakota and maybe things would have been different

put the TNG crew in the lakota and ds9 in the defiant and then you would have a fight
Yeah, you're right, we'll never know though, would be interesting to see... but then, the writers would just do fan-service, neither would win, or whichever was most popular at the time would win...
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# 6
09-06-2010, 04:27 AM
also for some reason i spelt captain benteen as between..... doh

went back and corrected that
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# 7
09-06-2010, 04:54 AM
Is this the one where they scaled up the Defiant?
Or scaled down the Lakota...
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# 8
09-06-2010, 05:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS Parallax
Most people say this was a toe to toe battle. However... it was not.


The Lakota was a massively refit Excelsior class ships with more powerful phasers and Quantum torpedoes. It may have had more systems upgraded but that's all we know for sure.

The Defiant is a ship that relies on it's maneuverability and massive firepower. It's cannons can rip through shields and it can dodge most incoming torpedoes and many phaser attacks.
So it's an old cruiser (that should be reclassified as a destroyer because newer cruisers are much bigger) upgraded with the newest weapon technology vs. an escort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USS Parallax
Lets look at the battle...

For the whole first minute the Defiant does not attack back. They don't take any major evasive actions. They just let themselves get hit several times by the Lakota's upgraded phasers.
So basically the Lakota is getting half a dozen (by my count) free phaser hits before the Defiant decides to fight back.
Yeah, that's typical for Star Trek battles. There are always bridge scenes where they talk while the others shoot. And as far as I know this was one of the last battles that were filmed with actual physical models (the Lakota being the Enterprise-B, they couldn't get the ugly parts off because of the glue). Also:

Kira: We're in weapons range.
Worf: Raise shields!

The other way around would've been better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USS Parallax
At this point they start exchanging blows. The Lakota takes the cannons however most seem to not be direct hits, often missing entirely as if the Defiant didn't actually want to shoot them (because they didn't).
All of the visible Lakota phaser beams hit and they just keep coming. The Defiant fires a single torpedo that we can see.
The Defiant wanted to hit them, otherwise they wouldn't have shot. They just didn't want to destroy the Lakota but disable her sp they could proceed to earth. But interpreting Worf's "We fight! Target their weapons, fire phasers!" as "We shoot but don't you dare to hit them." goes a bit far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USS Parallax
After the scene with the Admiral and Sisko (with the battle still going on) the Defiant crew talked about the current standings of the battle. The Defiant was badly damaged however as Kira put it "They're in worse shape. One good hit would probably finish them".
Yeah. However, Leyton was sure that the Lakota was powerful enough to stop them. Usually you don't become a vice admiral if you make that kind of mistake, this wasn't STO. As Benteen put it, they couldn't disable the Defiant with phasers because it had ablative armor, something that's seemingly not standard for Defiant-class ships. And the Lakota didn't use any torpedoes. It had 6 torpedo launchers, so it would have outgunned the Defiant there. Both were holding back, but the Defiant had the advantage of using phaser cannons and having ablative armor in a battle where the enemy doesn't use torpedoes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USS Parallax
Also the Defiant had 2 dead, 7 badly injured. The Lakota as many as 24 casualties. Again, the Lakota is losing.
Defiant: 50 crew, 9 = 18%. Lakota 750 crew 24= 3,2%......
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# 9
09-06-2010, 05:45 AM
I have to agree, the only thing that gave the Defiant the edge it needed was its ablative armor.
Had Leyton known that he would more than likely have sent a more powerful ship like a Galaxy class to deal with the Defiant.

But lets also keep in mind that ablative armor is an extra modification that could be potentially added to any starfleet ship, including an Excelsior.
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# 10
09-06-2010, 06:20 AM
The Lakota wasn't trying to destroy the Defiant. Kira states that the Lakota was targeting their warp engines. Captain Benteen states that her orders was to disable the Defiant. When given the order to use the Quantum Torpedos she powers down unwilling to destroy a Federation ship.
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