Star Trek Online Tactical damage consoles seem to no longer stack! Large drop in damage
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
03-08-2012, 03:02 PM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by landshark666 Actually no they're not linear at all, and yes there do appear to be diminishing returns. Take my previous example of 384 base damage (agan taken from stowiki - not sure how accurate but it is less than my in-game base damage which makes sense given whatever increases my character has built-in): 384 * 0.15 = 57.6 so 384 + 57 = 441.6 (actual measured in-game) So we can conclude that a 26% tac console is delivering only 15% return. But then: 384 + 57 = 498 + 57 = 555 Definitely not a linear progression when compared with actual in-game numbers.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
03-08-2012, 03:17 PM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by landshark666 Actually no they're not linear at all, and yes there do appear to be diminishing returns. Take my previous example of 384 base damage (agan taken from stowiki - not sure how accurate but it is less than my in-game base damage which makes sense given whatever increases my character has built-in): 384 * 0.15 = 57.6 so 384 + 57 = 441.6 (actual measured in-game) So we can conclude that a 26% tac console is delivering only 15% return. But then: 384 + 57 = 498 + 57 = 555 Definitely not a linear progression when compared with actual in-game numbers.
384+57 does not equal 498, it equals 441. but + another 57 equals 498. and 498 + 57 does equal 555. im confused by what your trying to show here, each console adds the same amount, as in linear.

do you not know what linear and diminishing returns mean? still looks exactly linear to me, otherwise you wouldn't be getting exactly 57 damage every console, you would be getting progressively less with each additional console if thier were diminishing returns. just because its not boosting as much as it maybe should, doesn't mean it isn't doing it in a linear way. came to the same concussion in my test in my first post in this thread

http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...32&postcount=6
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
03-08-2012, 04:01 PM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by corgatag I think this is the design of most MMOs. If it's 2v1, you're going to lose fast. If they nerfed damage or buffed resistance so that you could survive, PvP would degrade into a boring exercise in patience and perseverence.
I'm going to guess you haven't played many mmo's from that comment or at least haven't done pvp in them.

the DPS player sure 2 on 1 dps usually means a quick death for the dps (barring vampiric style heals)
a healer, maybe if the 2 are dps on 1 healer.

but a tank? no. Tanks typically can take damager from 3 or more and last long enough to either escape or have allies interject.

Tanks aren't supposed to go down easy and imo they've nerfed the hull and shields on the cruisers in this game compared with the amount of attacks/damage tanks can handle in other games.

The trade off is that tanks damage is nerfed and it takes them alot longer to take down a target.

I mean if you look at the size and power of a cruiser it doesn't make any sense that it could be taken down by smaller ships so easliy.

the escorts are way off of canon at least on the fed side in this game right now. * fly up real quick, a few pew pews, and boom the ship 5 times its size explodes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
03-08-2012, 04:07 PM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by corgatag You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Nice try, troll.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
03-08-2012, 04:13 PM
As a matter of fact I do, and I think your concussion as you say is impeding your understanding of my point here. Aside from the fact that I typed in the wrong number, I'm saying that's what it *should* be if it were linear, but it's not.

384 base (from stowiki) @ 15% (not 26% as indicated) = 57.6

So:

384 + 57 = 441 with single console (this actually matches the in-game measurement @ 15% increase rather than 26% but with a base of 396)
441 + 57 = 498 with two consoles (this does not match at all)
498 + 57 = 555 with three consoles (this does not match at all)

Besides the fact that this is an actual 15% increase rather than a 26% increase over and above what we think is the base damage on this particular weapon from the only resource that says so, this is not even what is happening in-game.

From my previous post:

396 (base)
441 (1 - Phaser Relay Mk XI @ 26% Phaser Damage)
487 (2 - Phaser Relay Mk XI @ 26% Phaser Damage)
533 (3 - Phaser Relay Mk XI @ 26% Phaser Damage)

I guess I'm just not so willing to accept that things are the way they're supposed to be, when they're so obviously not when you bother to crunch some numbers.

Here we have an example of a weapon that should be increased by 26% with the first console, but is only increased by 15%.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot 384+57 does not equal 498, it equals 441. but + another 57 equals 498. and 498 + 57 does equal 555. im confused by what your trying to show here, each console adds the same amount, as in linear. do you not know what linear and diminishing returns mean? still looks exactly linear to me, otherwise you wouldn't be getting exactly 57 damage every console, you would be getting progressively less with each additional console if thier were diminishing returns. just because its not boosting as much as it maybe should, doesn't mean it isn't doing it in a linear way. came to the same concussion in my test in my first post in this thread http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...32&postcount=6
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
03-08-2012, 04:51 PM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by landshark666 As a matter of fact I do, and I think your concussion as you say is impeding your understanding of my point here. Aside from the fact that I typed in the wrong number, I'm saying that's what it *should* be if it were linear, but it's not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_function

Desired forumla: D = 384 + 57 * C
Actual formula: D = 396 + 46 * C

(where D = damage, and C = # of consoles)

Both the actual formula and the desired formula are linear. They have different slopes (and the three of us would prefer the steeper slope), but they are both linear.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
03-08-2012, 04:59 PM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by landshark666 As a matter of fact I do, and I think your concussion as you say is impeding your understanding of my point here. Aside from the fact that I typed in the wrong number, I'm saying that's what it *should* be if it were linear, but it's not. 384 base (from stowiki) @ 15% (not 26% as indicated) = 57.6 So: 384 + 57 = 441 with single console (this actually matches the in-game measurement @ 15% increase rather than 26% but with a base of 396) 441 + 57 = 498 with two consoles (this does not match at all) 498 + 57 = 555 with three consoles (this does not match at all) Besides the fact that this is an actual 15% increase rather than a 26% increase over and above what we think is the base damage on this particular weapon from the only resource that says so, this is not even what is happening in-game. From my previous post: 396 (base) 441 (1 - Phaser Relay Mk XI @ 26% Phaser Damage) 487 (2 - Phaser Relay Mk XI @ 26% Phaser Damage) 533 (3 - Phaser Relay Mk XI @ 26% Phaser Damage) I guess I'm just not so willing to accept that things are the way they're supposed to be, when they're so obviously not when you bother to crunch some numbers. Here we have an example of a weapon that should be increased by 26% with the first console, but is only increased by 15%.
lets crunch some numbers then, your numbers

441-396=45
487-441=46
533-487=46

each console adds the same amount to your damage, ~46. if their were diminishing returns then console 1 would give you something like 46, console 2 would give you 39 and console 3 would give you 24. they don't, they all give you 46. them all giving you 46 means they are linear and there is no diminishing returns. it doesn't mater what their bonus is, no mater how many you have slotted they all give you the same bonus, which are then added together into your displayed damage.

stop using the words linear and diminishing returns, you are using them incorrectly. what you should be saying is that you arent satisfied by the % bonus you are seeing from the consoles, and that it should be looked into.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
03-08-2012, 05:00 PM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by yogurt21 the escorts are way off of canon at least on the fed side in this game right now. * fly up real quick, a few pew pews, and boom the ship 5 times its size explodes.
Way off canon?

Point being, size of the ship doesn't really matter. Weapons and capable Captains are what win the battle.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
03-08-2012, 05:39 PM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Shook-Yang Way off canon?
Quote:
unable to even target the defiant, after minutes of getting pounded on at point blank range it withdrew because damaging the defiant was impossible.

Quote:
defiant looked unimpressive honestly, most ships on screen were kicking more *** then it was. sure it flew around and looked cool but that's it. a galor class cruiser blew apart a bug ship in 1 hit, it took a sustained burst from the defiant to do the same. defiant fired 4 quantums to kill a breen ship, and later a several second cannon burst to destroy another. galor blew a breen ship away in 2 beam hits. the defiant isn't doing anything a bird of prey couldn't also do, its just proboly a bit tougher. larger ships with their larger weapon arrays continue to be more effective

Quote:
sisco seemed convinced that if the Lakota fired a spread of quantums the defiant would be destroyed. if it had done that at the start of the fight there wouldn't have even been a fight. they were both firing to disable, but the defiant was going all out, firing cannons, beam phasers, and photons as quickly as it could. lakota never fired a single torpedo. though the lakota was tough for an excelsior, its still just an 80 year old ship class and no amount of upgrades would make it as powerful as a more modern ship of similar size. even upgraded an excelsior is underpowered for her size, and the defiant was only a match for her.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Shook-Yang Point being, size of the ship doesn't really matter. Weapons and capable Captains are what win the battle.
theres no replacement for displacement, the defiant is not superior to larger ships, its just a ship with above average firepower for it's size. tiny escorts being so dangerous to large cruisers isn't cannon
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
03-09-2012, 09:29 AM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot unable to even target the defiant, after minutes of getting pounded on at point blank range it withdrew because damaging the defiant was impossible. defiant looked unimpressive honestly, most ships on screen were kicking more *** then it was. sure it flew around and looked cool but that's it. a galor class cruiser blew apart a bug ship in 1 hit, it took a sustained burst from the defiant to do the same. defiant fired 4 quantums to kill a breen ship, and later a several second cannon burst to destroy another. galor blew a breen ship away in 2 beam hits. the defiant isn't doing anything a bird of prey couldn't also do, its just proboly a bit tougher. larger ships with their larger weapon arrays continue to be more effective sisco seemed convinced that if the Lakota fired a spread of quantums the defiant would be destroyed. if it had done that at the start of the fight there wouldn't have even been a fight. they were both firing to disable, but the defiant was going all out, firing cannons, beam phasers, and photons as quickly as it could. lakota never fired a single torpedo. though the lakota was tough for an excelsior, its still just an 80 year old ship class and no amount of upgrades would make it as powerful as a more modern ship of similar size. even upgraded an excelsior is underpowered for her size, and the defiant was only a match for her. theres no replacement for displacement, the defiant is not superior to larger ships, its just a ship with above average firepower for it's size. tiny escorts being so dangerous to large cruisers isn't cannon
1) This Mirror Universe Negh'Var-class ship that Worf is commanding is supposedly a larger version than your standard Negh'Var-class. If a standard Negh'Var-class is 700 meters (which is about 50 meters larger than a Galaxy-Class), one could only imagine how big the Mirror Universe version is. They even built a larger scale model specifically for this battle scene. The Negh'Var-class fled not just because they couldn't hit it. They fled because they were getting their *** kicked and were on the verge of being destroyed. There was hardly anyone left alive on the bridge by the time it fled.

Do you honestly think a Galaxy class ship would stand a chance against a ship of that size?

2) You could also watch the Bird of Preys, which are about the same size as the Defiant. They were doing quite well against the Jem'Hadar. They've shown in other battles that the Defiant could kill a bug in one burst (which is 4 phaser bursts). When the Dominion first showed up, a Galaxy class ship couldn't even kill one of them.