Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
03-04-2012, 12:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
there is no question that the excelsior is the strongest damage dealing cruiser, in the hands of a tactical captain. but a tactical captain should be in an escort, even in the strongest tactical cruiser your gimping yourself.

an engineer in a cruiser should proboly be in an assault cruiser of star cruiser, they would be better at serving their purpose there. the +1 c store odyssey might 1 up the starcruiser in usefulness, but with the free one its debatable that its better.

actually the galor one ups even the excelsior in tactical ability, but you have to have incredible luck to get one though.
Yes there is a question as the Odyssey's can out damage the excelsior due to the extra Tactical skills.

I could not come first in SB24 untill I swaped to an Odyssey's. Now I can even beat Escorts.
People say the dreadnought's hold the edge but they forget to factor in the extra passive Odyssey's bonues which I guess most people are not even aware off like the sheild passive buffs.

How does the Galor one up the Excelsior in tactical ability? I thought both are the same apart from the Galor has a better shield tank and the Excelsior better armor tank.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
03-04-2012, 01:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by discovery7810
Excelsior refit or the dreadnought cruiser but with one less console.
One less console? You realize you don't need to run the cloaking device if you don't want it, right?

As to damage, it really depends on what you want to do with it: in STFs, I'd say the firepower capability of a Dreadnought is hard to surpass, since the enemies that need the DPS are so huge you can easily line up an expanded broadside (aft beam arrays and fore torpedoes or dual beam banks) and then just wiggle a bit every time your Phaser Lance comes online (you can mitigate the power drain fairly easily), unleashing a truly massive alpha strike. If you have good Cannon Boff skills, running it with Dual Cannons fore and Turrets aft and just staring head-on at the enemy all the time isn't completely out of the question. I haven't run numbers to verify this, so more experienced people will likely disagree with me, but that's my gut on it.

HOWEVER, outside of PvE (and primarily STFs, at that), the enemies aren't kilometer-wide nearly-stationary targets, so you can't rely on that Phaser Lance to get the job done. You'll look like an idiot who mistook a Cruiser for an Escort. Not unless Cryptic does release Saucer-Sep capability for the Dreadnought, and they let it shoot the Lance while separated...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
03-04-2012, 01:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
Yes there is a question as the Odyssey's can out damage the excelsior due to the extra Tactical skills.

I could not come first in SB24 untill I swaped to an Odyssey's. Now I can even beat Escorts.
People say the dreadnought's hold the edge but they forget to factor in the extra passive Odyssey's bonues which I guess most people are not even aware off like the sheild passive buffs.

How does the Galor one up the Excelsior in tactical ability? I thought both are the same apart from the Galor has a better shield tank and the Excelsior better armor tank.
not sure if serious...

the odyssey is garbage, it cannot deal damage. the sci ensign all but prevents you from using your LTC station for anything other then engineering, if you want any survivability. even with the shield hit point bonus, it wont matter much when something parks behind you and kills you through a single shield facing because you cant turn.

an odyssey with a LTC tactical station is the easiest tier 5 cruiser to kill, with its low defense score and inability to turn its easier to kill then most escorts. all the wile it has only 2 tactical console that gimp every shot it fires. some pve mission is not a proper litmus test, pvp is were you discover what sucks and what doesn't, and you will find that its 80% player skill, 20% ship that determinants how well you do in anything in game.

the galor can have an extra tactical LT station on top of its LTC tactical station at the cost of a science LT station, its turn rate is 2 better, and its shields are stronger. its got as close to an ideal tactical cruiser station setup as possible. also shield tanking>>>>>>>>>hull tanking, any shield hitpoint bonus is extremely beneficial, especially when you can turn well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
03-04-2012, 01:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by discovery7810
Personally I loathe the segregation and if true it means a bad game design. Might as well NOT give the players any option to choose their starships but fix them based on their career specialization. After all if what you say is true there is little value in choosing otherwise. Logic dictates that either the game design is flawed or the argument.
You have a very good point here - the game design IS flawed, big time. Since you need nothing but DPS to win anything. You are the most useful in STFs when you can kill quickly. Supporters aren't necessary at all since you can pop and return in 15s and deal damage once more while the supporters do less damage and may even struggle and waste their resources on healing a glass cannon which pops eventually (I play a tank/support ENG and find myself useless way too often). In PvP you blitz in, deal alpha-strikes to your enemy and hope he dies before you do. And regular PvE is either a cakewalk no matter what load out you have since it scales with you or is just laughable overpowered for the very same reeason. For example, the Jem'Hadar dreadnought in the holo-excercise in "Of Bajor" was one-shotting my Odyssey tank with imba torp-spreads on advanced difficulty. Friggin Borg cubes don't manage that
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
03-04-2012, 01:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
not sure if serious...

the odyssey is garbage, it cannot deal damage. the sci ensign all but prevents you from using your LTC station for anything other then engineering, if you want any survivability. even with the shield hit point bonus, it wont matter much when something parks behind you and kills you through a single shield facing because you cant turn.

an odyssey with a LTC tactical station is the easiest tier 5 cruiser to kill, with its low defense score and inability to turn its easier to kill then most escorts. all the wile it has only 2 tactical console that gimp every shot it fires. some pve mission is not a proper litmus test, pvp is were you discover what sucks and what doesn't, and you will find that its 80% player skill, 20% ship that determinants how well you do in anything in game.

the galor can have an extra tactical LT station on top of its LTC tactical station at the cost of a science LT station, its turn rate is 2 better, and its shields are stronger. its got as close to an ideal tactical cruiser station setup as possible. also shield tanking>>>>>>>>>hull tanking, any shield hitpoint bonus is extremely beneficial, especially when you can turn well.
I am very serious although I didn't realise the Galor had a universal BO slot which explains why people perfer the Galor over Excelsior. As for the odyssey I am not sure if you are serious about low damage. I deal high damage with it more than my Excelsior and still end up with a stronger tank then the Excelsior. In PvP I often come at top or near top in damage. Turn rate is no problem with the right setup.

Personally I perfer hull tanking over shields as I did the math and hull thinking seems stronger plus I last longer. Even with a LTC tactical station the Odyssey has a higher shield tank then Excelsior and higher damage over the Excelsior. So why pick the Excelsior?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
03-04-2012, 07:02 AM
I am lucky to have a Galor and Excelsior the Galor has more survivability. But my Excelsior regularly comes 1st or 2nd in SB24. Best cruiser depends on setup and real life captain (player)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
03-04-2012, 07:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
I am very serious although I didn't realise the Galor had a universal BO slot which explains why people perfer the Galor over Excelsior. As for the odyssey I am not sure if you are serious about low damage. I deal high damage with it more than my Excelsior and still end up with a stronger tank then the Excelsior. In PvP I often come at top or near top in damage. Turn rate is no problem with the right setup.

Personally I perfer hull tanking over shields as I did the math and hull thinking seems stronger plus I last longer. Even with a LTC tactical station the Odyssey has a higher shield tank then Excelsior and higher damage over the Excelsior. So why pick the Excelsior?
what is the best way to hull tank? I have tried both the borg set plus adding all sorts of armour/plating consoles but in pvp it hull strength goes from 100% to 0% in a second? Or borg set minus shield and add the strongest shield i have plus all the armour/plating consoles?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
03-04-2012, 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAJ_2011
what is the best way to hull tank? I have tried both the borg set plus adding all sorts of armour/plating consoles but in pvp it hull strength goes from 100% to 0% in a second? Or borg set minus shield and add the strongest shield i have plus all the armour/plating consoles?
Not sure there is a best way but the way I do it is get the Borg Deflector for the hull hitpoints and Aux power. Add on the Borg universal damage boosting console which boosts both hull heals and x2 set gives the trigger hull heal based on your hitpoint total. The bigger your base hull hitpoints the more hitpoints you heal per second. I get around 2500 per second hull hitpoints on my Odyssey. Then I prefer x4 Neutronium Alloy although some people prefer x1 Kinetic resistance with x3 Alloy.

For BO powers I take Engineering Team III, Aux to Structural III. x2 Maintenance Duty officers purple type will mean the Engineering Team cycles every 15seconds and every time you trigger it all other hull heals you have increase. I guess you could have x3 Maintenance Duty officers for more hull heal power but the Engineering Team will not speed up past 15seconds so I am not so sure that's effective. (Alternatively x3 blue over x2 purple). Lastly you most likely want x1 or x2 Hazard Emitters and high Aux power to boost Emitters and Sif heal rates. Having Miracle Worker wouldn't hurt either if you have access to that.
Key skills being Armor reinforcements, Hull plating, Structural Integrity, Hull repair. I also take Auxiliary performance not that it's really needed.

With the Odyssey it's a tough choice of more damage or more tank via having Hazed Emitters III. I tend to go towards more damage and only use Hazed Emitters II. Although sometimes I take Tachyon Beam and science skills as they goes well with the high Aux power I use for hull heals.

if you are not running a hybrid shield/armor tank you can fit x3 flow Capacitor consoles and have a real nice shield drain ability with x2 Tachyon Beam's. I find x2 Tractor beams with shield drain (from duty officer) with x2 Tachyon Beam's for shield drain work really nice.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
03-04-2012, 10:36 AM
How can you say hull tanking better than shield tanking? That doesn't make any sense. With a MACO shield + EPTS, you take 30% less damage from all energy damage, and a 75% inherent resistance to kinetic damage. How can you possibly tank better with your hull. Even if you have 4 armor consoles, you're looking at 40%-ish damage resist to everything; which is 5% better vs energy weapons, and 35% worse against kinetic. A HY2 would rip you in half.

And the setup you describe, it does a large amount of hull healing. But you're trading out every single dps eng ability, as well as 3 eng consoles slot. Which btw, sufferes from rediculous diminishing returns. And still claim you can out dps an excelsior? Are you out of you're mind?

If you think you can out dps ANY cruiser with the odessey. The tac console alone makes the odessey the weakest on dps. I mean, 26%. Because any setup you use on the odessey you can use on the excel, and it gets the 26% boost from the extra console. The math just doesn't add up.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
03-04-2012, 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyell
How can you say hull tanking better than shield tanking? That doesn't make any sense. With a MACO shield + EPTS, you take 30% less damage from all energy damage, and a 75% inherent resistance to kinetic damage. How can you possibly tank better with your hull. Even if you have 4 armor consoles, you're looking at 40%-ish damage resist to everything; which is 5% better vs energy weapons, and 35% worse against kinetic. A HY2 would rip you in half.

And the setup you describe, it does a large amount of hull healing. But you're trading out every single dps eng ability, as well as 3 eng consoles slot. Which btw, sufferes from rediculous diminishing returns. And still claim you can out dps an excelsior? Are you out of you're mind?

If you think you can out dps ANY cruiser with the odessey. The tac console alone makes the odessey the weakest on dps. I mean, 26%. Because any setup you use on the odessey you can use on the excel, and it gets the 26% boost from the extra console. The math just doesn't add up.
4 armor consoles pre buffs are 47.3% resistance, so a High Yield dints my hull. (EDIT plus without buffs I am already better resistance then your maco shield with buffs on energy) My hitpoint pool without shields is 56,000 rounded. My heal skills heal around 10k to 20k per skill and two of the skills only have a 15second cycle rate each. Plus I keep a sliver of shields spare on rear or side so I can balance shields if I see a torp on the way. Not that I need to as I can pretty much get close if not capping out at 75% Kinetic resistance after buffs. As for "you're trading out every single dps eng ability" How is using 2 Eng ability to hull heal any worse then using 2 eng ability to shield heal? I have a total of 2 ability from the Eng pool on healing so how is that tradeing every single dps ability? I could still have them if I wanted. I assume you run x2 EPTS. All I do is swap those 2 for two hull heals only my hull heals heal more then EPTS and are on a 15 sec timer so trigger twice as often.

With the odyssey I have two options drain around 5000 shields every 15seconds on average with Science skills or I can use a combo of skills like Torpedo Spread III and II every 30seconds mixed with x2 tactical teams to boost base damage or various other combos you can do with 5 Tactical skills. Those are all damage skills I cannot pull off with other cruisers bar the Galor. Yes I do miss one damage boost console but that just means my shield draining ability is higher. Anyway the extra tactical BO skills gives more of a damage boost then the extra tactical console slots on other cruisers.

EDIT2:
Yes I use all my eng consoles towards tank. But I open all my science slots as I do not need 35%shield cap or 13% shield recharge or emitter consoles. Plus you do not need to use all eng slots that is just my preference.

EDIT3: If I go up against a typical Excelsior it will never break my tank but there is a good chance I will break its tank with shield drain and high dps.
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