Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
03-12-2012, 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalpimpin
> I explained very well I think, why that defense bonus does nothing for me. 10% or 200% wouldn't matter because I am not moving fast enough to get the bonus =). Honestly I think it is more for cruisers that are always flying around in circles broad side attacking, rather than escorts.
I think you underestimate the importance of defense. Yes you may be moving very slowly when unloading your payload, but don't forget you will be moving from target to target at times. Also, there will be times you need to make a quick get away. Hate it when I blow up as my evasive maneuvers is activated. You want to maximize your ability to tank when you are actually shooting, not when you are traveling between or repositioning for another target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalpimpin
> Finally, Beta - Yes, beta is a debuff - I understand it helps the group =) - However you never answered my question on what you would swap out in order to get beta in.


I have currently:

> Tactical Team 1 x2
> Scatter Volley 1, Torpedo Spread 2
> Beam Overload 3, Rapid Fire 2
> Omega 3

Now looking at beta here: http://www.stowiki.org/Ability:_Attack_Pattern_Beta

I can see I can trade one of those skills for a 5 second debuff. If I was in a hardcore STF fleet that was super ridiculously co-ordinated, then maybe I could sacrifice something, but with the number of tactical slots I currently have - there is simply no room for a 5 second debuff.
The problem with omega is the long cooldown. You will be able to run beta twice as often as omega. Plus the 5 sec debuff continues to refresh itself as long as you are shooting at the target, so it is really a lot longer than 5 sec. Your damage over time will be higher with beta rather than omega.

As to where to fit it in, you could get rid of omega and use something else to give you tractor immunity like polarize hull. Alternatively, you get rid of your torps, and run 3x cannons plus DBB.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
03-12-2012, 08:56 PM
Thanks for explaining with more detail on what Beta does =)

Now, when I use beta - does it apply a buff to me so that every target I shoot is debuffed? or am I simply debuffing a single target period?

If it is the latter, then I still don't think it's worth it - however, if it is the former ... then that has possibilities ...

I would really really hate to lose omega - it's basically everything in one skill, dmg buff, def buff, anti-CC.

I could drop Omega 3, - Grab Rapid 3, Spread 3, Beta 1 ... possibly. Would break my heart to lose omega though, and I really really don't want to get rid of my Torps so.

On the upside trading up to rapid 3 / spread 3 might help make up some of the lost damage - but that is only if the debuff tracks to whatever I am shooting at, and not simply debuffing a single target (which would be useless).

Definitely something to think about!


--

As for defense =) - I don't underestimate it at all. I am simply a realist =)


I just don't see how an extra 15% defense either way is going to do anything for me - I am either going to die, or I am going to kill whatever is trying to kill me. It's as simple as that.

In a perfect world, a world filled with cruisers that bothered to spec into hate skills, so they had the ability to pull aggro off me with their 'Pew pew" lasers - then sure, maybe that extra 15% defense might buy me some time to see that happen - but honestly - I can't even think of a single time I have had aggro pulled off of me in any mission / stf by another ship.

As soon as I start firing - usually within seconds, if not immediately, I am now the focus of aggro and so I shall remain until I die, or it dies.

I am sorry I just can't see it =)


However, like I said, I have WAY more survivability now that I have switched to that borg / mako / console / 35% shield / etc - made a massive difference in how long I can stay alive, and I am pretty happy with that right now.

You have intrigued me into testing out my swap set of beta 1 / rf3 / tsp3 however ...

I will most definitely give that a shot! - Thanks very much =)


Cheers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
03-12-2012, 11:24 PM
Pretty sure beta affects all targets that you shoot. Especially handy when used with scatter volley.

Personally, I use both beta and omega. I can do this because I dont have DBB which frees up a slot with no BO3. Cuz I like my torps too.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
03-13-2012, 02:20 AM
I really like my BO3 - can get some nice crits off it - had over 20k before.

I find it works well to eat a shield facing with RF3 to make room for a missile volley.

Still - If I wanted to get beta in ... I could do something like this:

Fore: 3x DHC + 1 DBB
Aft: 3x Turret

As for skills, I can do the following:

RF3 BO2 SV1 Om1 Beta2 (Middle of the Road)

or

RF3 BO3 SV1 Om1 Beta1 (Maximum skill damage - minimum buff/debuff)

or

RF2 BO2 SV1 Om1 Beta3 (30sec CD on Beta3, but I lose a BIG chunk of dmg / resist from Om3>1)

or

RF2 BO2 SV1 Om3 Beta2 (this looks like the clear winner - but Om3 has a 60 sec CD)

--

Of course, if I did this, I would have to totally respec since all points into torpedo stuff would be entirely wasted...which would make it look something like this now:

http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skil...hp?build=xx1_0


I saw a DPS calculator but it seemed woefully out of date. Does anyone else know any tools (that are up to date) that could help me determine what skill set I should use please?


Cheers.


P.s. Just to get a little off topic - something I've been curious about.

I have a keybind macro that allows me fire all energy weapons + fix my shield facings, just by pushing the spacebar.

Is it possible to make a macro that combines my attack skills (as listed above) and combine them with my two copies of Tactical Team 1 so that skill is always up while I am attacking?

If so, how would I go about doing that please?

Thanks again.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
03-13-2012, 07:19 AM
1.
Build: you have a cap of 300k skill points to spend in space. Use them.
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skil...ieftac5final_0
yeah it's tac, but you only need to change the ground skills.

You always max out accuracy. Anything over 100% accuracy gets automatically turned into bonus critical chance. You want that.


2.
Boffs: you, as opposed to a tac captain running that escort, get a pile of defensive skills, like modulation and miracle worker. You need to keep Tac Team up 24/7, engineering or science team have no business being there.
Hazard Emitters is used to remove borg iCheat shield neutralizers.

3.
Loadout:
You do not need an aft torpedo. You don't ever turn your arse at the enemy, you have forward facing heavy cannons.
- fore: 3x dhc, 1 torp (whatever variety suits you)
- aft: 3x turrets
- engine+shld+deflector combo: whatever set or set pieces you want. Aegis is pretty easy to get. So is Jem' Hadar set. Until you get something better of course.
- engi consoles: borg console, crew resist consoles (work well with jem'hadar set), power consoles (plasma distribution/field emitter).
- sci consoles: field generator (35% more shield, does not stack), shield regen (13%)
- tac consoles: 3x dmg boost match the energy weapons you have, 1x dmg boost match the torpedo you have. Tac console max damage boost is 26%, not 28%. You can get this on pink mk x or blue mk xi.

6. why beta and not omega.
Omega is used as a tractor counter. Omega boosts HULL resist. If you're doing hull tanking in an escort, you're doing it wrong.
Beta boosts damage, Omega doesn't. More DPS=good. You, being an engineer, might have trouble getting Beta 3 though.
Beta 3 + Alpha 3 + CSV from 3 heavy cannons and 3 turrets + quantum torp spread WILL pretty much crap on everything the PVE part of the game throws at you.

7. You die a lot.
That's expected in an escort. The main point of the end game (STFs) is doing as much damage as possible in the shortest amount of time possible, sacrificing anything for that. Including survivability. You shoot fast, die fast, get back in the action fast, rinse and repeat. It's boring, monotonous and hardly rewarding.
Also, the borg iCheat 1 shot kills are meant to... 1 shot kill you. That's part of the brilliant "let's make STFs harder" strategy. Most people call it "cheap programmer cover-up for idiotic AI".

Quote:
Which I find a little amusing that the DPS guys stay still and the tanks are moving - you'd think it would be the other way around.
Yea that was a total facepalm for me too. The fast and maneuvrable playing "turret hanging in space", while the bulky whales always run at full speed. And it's furthermore reinforced by the fact that only the small, fast and maneuvrable can carry limited arc cannons.

Anyway, this is dangerously close to turning into wall of text, so I better stop now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
03-13-2012, 08:13 AM
Couple of things about that build I am curious about ... well more than couple, so let's start at the start =)


1. You put no point in Warp Core Efficiency - I have no idea why you did that (or rather didn't)

2. You use torps but are hesitant to actually invest in the skills

3. You realise that we don't really move - yet you dumped points into thrusters, which only gives us a .5 extra turn speed at 9pts just as a FYI - huge waste of points imho.

4. The very few pts I am missing from that 300k cap in space - isn't anything to write home about. However, it helps make my ground build very complete and is well worth the trade off (to me).

5. I am not entirely sure you realise what Omega does...You state it is a hull resist and not a damage boost. This is what my tooltip reads:

Damge Buff, Resistance, and Control Immunity
+25% All Damage 15sec, +37 All Damage Resistance 15sec, +97% Flight Speed 15sec, +97% Turn Rate 15sec, Immunity To Movement/Disable Debuffs 15sec, +45% Defense 15sec

That is a friggin HUGE buff - and it does everything - I see no downside to that skill at all, of course with the exception it is only 15secs with a 60sec CD


6. You said the following contradictory statement:

Beta 3 + Alpha 3 + CSV from 3 heavy cannons and 3 turrets + quantum torp spread WILL pretty much crap on everything the PVE part of the game throws at you

Yet you do not use mines, nor do you use Alpha 3 (I have zero desire to use mines I find them a waste 90% of the time since I don't PvP)


7. I also noticed you mentioned the shield regen (13%) console - this is actually worse than the Console - Science - Emitter Array (+XX Starship Shield Emitters) - Refer to the description on the Wiki page:

http://www.stowiki.org/Console_-_Eng...tter_Amplifier

8. Please check the market =) You will clearly see +28% purple tact consoles in there

9. Crew resist consoles are kinda pointless on ships with small crews - only supposedly worth while on cruisers with 1000+ crews - If you have nothing else to put there (like I did until I got my universal) then i guess - but otherwise no good for an escort crew.


Thanks for visiting and sharing =)


P.s. I am going to update the original post to reflect the changes that have happened in this thread!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
03-13-2012, 09:43 AM
1. Warp core efficiency only boosts systems that have power level under 75. Since nobody's dumb enough to fly around with shields and weapons at 75 or below, it only helps with engines and aux, but quite frankly, I don't really care about aux power, and engine is boosted enough for my needs.

2. I probably would if there were more skill points. As it is, the cannons provide the bulk of your dps, torpedo is just an added burst damage. And something to use a skill on from that otherwise useless ensign tac slot. You're flying a fleet escort and do not have that 3rd tac slot, but you do get a second engineer, so you can use whatever. Torpedo is useful in STFs against those many many unshielded hull points.

3. You do move, you always move, either backwards or fwd at 25% impulse. You never EVER stop dead, that's -15% defense.
You also need turn speed to bring the cannons to bear on everything. Whatever the bonus is, it's better than 0.

4. Suit yourself and build as you like.

5. Omega, 25% damage boost for you alone, 15 seconds, then 45 second cooldown.
Beta, 20% more damage for everyone in the team, 10 seconds, then 20 second cooldown.
You do the math.
However, as I said, I can train my boffs in Beta 3. You can't.

6. Huh? What mines?
Okay, there's some contradictions there. First, Attack Pattern Alpha is a captain skill. You don't have it being an engineer. Second, CSV is cannon scatter volley. Third, what mines?

7. You're linking to some outdated wiki page. I said "sci console". That's some old engineering version of it which doesn't exist anymore.

8. Have not seen such things yet. But here 26% is shown as max, which is what I've been using.

9. Crew resist consoles are everything on a low crew escort. You lose the crew, you're pretty much screwed.
But that's just my opinion and, well, build your ship as you want.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
03-13-2012, 10:50 AM
Thanks for coming back to reply!

Ok I understand where your coming from with those tactical consoles now. I did a little look see in game and compared to what I was seeing on the wiki and your using disruptor damage, I am using antiproton damage. My consoles go 2% higher, ie: they have a purple version and yours don't. That is the only difference.

I think there might have been some confusion with the whole mines thing - I had thought you were talking about Dispersal Pattern Alpha - which is a mine laying skill. I have never played a tactical officer, so I wasn't aware there was another Alpha skill there.

I think I might be sold on the usefulness of the beta .. Still leery about giving up my Omega though =)

As for that page - the page is accurate - however it was changed from an Engineer to a Science console in a past update and no one bothered to change the webpage (there is actually a link to the science page in the description I noticed upon a closer look).

I am not sure if the warning still holds true - I am quite positive i read on the forums here, that the array was better than the amplifier, I could be mistaken and if you can find me something that can back that up I will apologize =)


Finally, again I think there might have been a mis-understaning. My fault this time, I don't think I was very clear when I replied.

Yes, I am very aware that we need to be moving all the time and that stopping entirely is very bad. Not under dispute =). I am only trying to explain that you are only gaining a 0.5 increase (at 9pts) in turn rate which is utterly meaningless and a massive waste of points.

I find with my borg engine, I have ZERO problems with either speed or turning, plus omega + evasive both buff turn rate in a pinch if you really feel that need. Just the way I see it, if your happy with that, then more power to you =)


Cheers!

P.s. The original post is updated now with fresh info!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
03-13-2012, 12:08 PM
Well, finally got home from work.

There are two basic PVE escort builds:

1. Full cannons uses 4 DHC up front and 3 turrets aft. This is a build that focuses on one target at a time, as such, you use 2 versions of Rapid Fire to pound the target into oblivion.

2. Cannons + 1 torpedo. This one is about AoE, you would use 2x Scatter Volley and Torpedo Spread to take out groups. It also takes a lot of flak from aggroing so many npcs.

One thing they both share is the use of 2x Tac Teams to hold the shields up where they're needed the most.

Your build, with 2 dhc, 1 dbb and 1 torp is kinda what people generally use in pvp, high burst damage then gtfo of there, but you are not sustaining that damage while those skills are on cooldown. Which is when you're flying around at high speed trying to get back behind the enemy.

About Beta, the tooltip says -20 damage resistance. Don't take my word on it actually being 20% damage bonus, I'm just guessing here. However, the main point is that it adds bonus damage for everyone, while Omega only gives it to you. That is what makes Omega less useful.

Honestly, I don't know if the sci console +13% shield regen is better or worse or about he same with the +24 emitters one. I've been using the regen one and never thought of changing it. Also, I've only been using resilient shields, not regenerative.

About the thrusters skill, I have no idea what that thread is, how old it is and how it got those numbers. My ship originally had 17 turn rate (tooltip when buying it), I currently have 28.3 degrees per second turn rate in it. I'd say that's more than 0.5 increase.

About your boff skills issue: (this is just a suggestion)

Tactical boff:
tac team
rapid fire -or- scatter volley
ap omega 1
ap beta 3

Tactical boff:
tac team
high yield -or- torpedo spread
rapid fire -or- scatter volley

Tactical boff: (you do not have this station on your ship)
high yield -or- torpedo spread

Engineering boff:
EmptShields
RSP

Engineering boff: (I don't have this station, so I lose the RSP)
EmptShields

Science boff:
hazard emitters
hazard emitters

Why no beam skills? Because I don't use any beams.
Why 2 hazard emitters? They remove the borg iCheat shield neutralizer. Which also has shorter cooldown than your 30 sec hazard emitters cooldown. Or there are just too many borg spamming that crap.

It has been proven in this thread that 8 beam cruisers are a definite no-no. There's actually a damage output dropoff with more than 6 beams.
Cannons are the most efficient energy weapons because of their short firing time, and heavy cannons are the best at power efficiency.

http://www.nagorak.com/stoweaponscaling100.jpg

Warp Core Efficiency is a useless skill.
The attacker will run with 100/50/25/25 power or some variation of that, I myself use 85/65/25/25.
The defender will run with 50/100/25/25 power or some variation of that.
Given that the max power bonus from WCE is +9 at 25 power marker, this only goes into engines and aux.

What else can I tell you? In my very own thread people were advising me to max skills instead of getting +6 on virtually everything.

This is my old skill set from when I was flying a fleet escort. Full cannons loadout, 4 dhc and 3 turrets. I did 90% of the game's episodes in that ship.
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skil...mischieftac4_0

I don't know if you've already been here, but here are some interesting escort reads:

The STF Escort Build Thread - very good read, very long thread, STF focused.

Z's Advanced Escort Build - shorter, not so STF focused, dealing mostly with the Advanced Escort.

Oh and one more thing: your question of "which does more damage" is incomplete. You have to decide whether you want high burst damage (alpha strike, hit and run), or high sustained damage (stay there and pound them).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
03-13-2012, 01:08 PM
Thanks for coming back and replying =)

Yes, I have read that escort thread - lots of good info in there. There is just so much outdated info on these forums + wiki, that is really confusing on what you need to be paying attention to and what you don't need to be paying attention to.

A prime example of that is that emitter vs amplifier - I am positive people warned me away from that flat % one telling me the emitter was better - but you guys are now telling me the % is better, so I have no idea what to believe.

The game further makes things more frustrating by not having proper tool tips, they change depending on if your in combat, out of combat, on the ground, in space, etc - makes it terribly annoying trying to get a proper read out.

That thread > http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=247338

Is very up to date (2012) and is a on-going thread that is updated quite frequently, here is what it says for turning:

Impulse thrusters

0 points/50 power: 3.8 turn 20.45 speed
0 points/10 0power: 4.1 turn 32.74 speed
3 points/50power: 4.1 turn 25.29 speed
3 points/100power: 4.2 turn 38.9 speed
6 points/50power: 4.1 turn 27.93 speed
6 points/100power: 4.3 turn 41.86 speed
9 points/50power: 4.1 turn 29.31 speed
9points/100power: 4.3 (47.7@FI) turn 43.79 speed

No one has disputed those numbers, and one dude was even quite upset about those numbers heh. If you'd like to discuss that more, hit up ol'yellowbead in that thread and chat with him about it =)


Finally, I am more of a sit there while slowing moving backwards type of guy . I don't like flying around in circles constantly trying to position myself.

So, with that in mind the alpha strike would seem to be the better option - I just would like to know what kind of damage variance I am looking at between the two builds in my OP (the all cannons vs the burst dmg build).

- Since my skill points are more or less setup to test the burst dmg build with the 3 3's - I picked up the skills and did some rearranging of BO's - I'd still like to hear from someone that has tested out the 4 cannon build with rotating debuffs every 15 seconds to see how viable it is.
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