Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 91
03-17-2012, 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baelturath
As I've already said several times, the Kobayashi Maru is a test of character. How does the cadet face a situation that doesn't have a "best" solution and cannot be "won"?

Would you violate the Neutral Zone in an attempt to rescue the crew of the stranded ship, thus risking your own ship or even provoking a military conflict with the Klingons? Or do you stay away and leave the freighter and its crew to its fate? Do you attempt something entirely different, for example setting up a chain of modified astrometric probes as transporter relays to evacuate the crew without crossing borders?

In game terms your decisions in the test could determine 1 or 2 of your racial traits and/or provide some bonuses to your skills. It's about creating a higher degree of immersion in the setting, combining background and mechanics. Imho it would be much more interesting to actually define some of your character's abilities and traits by ingame decisions than simply selecting them from a dropdown list.
How would you quantify the results? There was no indication of any such revelations from other tests. In fact, the test itself is flawed. The Enterprise is said to be in violation by virtue of being in the Neutral zone, but the Klingon warships are also in the Neutral zone. Furthermore, being cloaked, it would be harder for them to prove they weren't there all along. It seems unlikely that no cadet would realize that or point it out. It also seems unlikely that a ship assigned to patrol near the neutral zone wouldn't be given details of civilian ships operating inside the zone. There has to be some mechanism for policing it from both sides..... There also have to be exceptions to the 'no warships' rule. K7, and Sherman's Planet, are 'near the Klingon Border.' Sherman's Planet is under negotiation as to who will end up in control.... yet that is not 'in the neutral zone?'

Quote:
So it's okay that every captain is Sisko + Janeway (shoot first, ask questions later + being personal with the oh-so-reclusive Prophets + getting away with metric tons of rules violations + getting promotions for doing all sorts of **** that provoke wars left and right), but being Kirk + Picard would be the end of the universe for you? That's a quite double-standard stance you have there.
Talking to the prophets is a matter of using one of the Orbs. Sisko isn't the only one to have used them. They were given the the Bajoran people, not to him specificly. And they usually don't help overtly or at all, which is the case in Of Bajor. And the Prime Directive was misquoted all over the place in later series. It doesn't mean blanket non-interferance. It limits interferance with pre-warp cultures. Otherwise the Federation would be obligated to lose every war it becomes involved in, including against the Borg.

Quote:
And there's still the precedence with Star Trek: Borg where Q intervenes heavily regarding a relatively unknown vessel and its crew. You may say "ST:B is not canon", but neither is STO. In fact, STO is much further away from canon than ST:B.
You are citing another game as 'more canon' than this game. Prove it is considered canon. Simply saying it is doesn't cut it.

Quote:
You seem to miss the point. I wouldn't want Q resurrecting my ship, I suggested (among other options, mind you!) that Q would intervene before my ship would blow up. Freezing time for me, making the incoming torps deal 0 damage while my ship drifts along with 3 hull points left, moving my ship out of the enemies' attack range, stuff like that.
How is that materially different? Q could just as easily remove a key engine part from each of the enemy vessels, destroying them that way ala Charlie X, if he really wants to guarantee you a victory. Snipped Q's abilities from your post. Not sure why you feel I don't know them. Yes he can see the future, but you are talking about interference waaaaaay beyond anything in any canon.

Quote:
Have you recently played in Kerrat or done any STF or faced any Borg incursion? The current game mechanics default to attrition. You can't evade it because the game doesn't give you an alternative! Or what else would you do against those unimatrix ships dealing 3x30k with their plasma torp spread while being held by 3 tractor probes, unable to get away?
Q's involvement wouldn't change any of that. Frankly if you look at battles like Wolf, or the battles over DS9, or the Klingon civil war, large numbers of ships are lost. In war, losses happen. You can have players die permanently, or you can suspend disbelief and assume it was some other ship that 'really' died, or you can assume something else is happening, but the current mechanics are simple and work.

Quote:
This mechanic alone makes it much more effective to fly close to an enemy and then die than try to escape and repair (since repairing probably takes you also at least 15s but you didn't fire of a 20k damage aoe before going out).
But playing it out and trying to survive is more satisfying. Q intervention wouldn't prevent attrition tactics.

[quote]Because that would be boring for Q. Q is like the owner of a dog that likes to watch the dog struggle with several problems, just making sure the dog doesn't kill itself but otherwise letting it figure out the solutions on its own. If you ever had a pet dog you'd know what I'm talking about. Watching your dog trying to dig out or fetch something that is too large for him to handle can be quite entertaining. Obviously you'd keep an eye open that the dog doesn't hurt himself, but you wouldn't intervene otherwise because it's just too funny to watch (at least for quite some time).

How is repeatedly resurrecting/saving someone less boring than simply killing their opponents and achieving the same result with less effort/repetitive action?

Quote:
Because those time loops are even more rare than appearances of Q?
As individual effects, maybe. But what if it is one galaxy wide effect? Precedent for wide area temporal effects exists. Besides precedent for one shot changes from various time travel episodes, in TNG's "We'll Always Have Paris", the Manheim effect was affecting neighboring systems. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Manheim_Effect

If everyone everywhere is being caught up in the same effect, it would explain a lot, including he fact that there are ship classes flying about that are anachronistic, as well as uniforms, etc.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 92
03-17-2012, 11:46 AM
More non-linear missions would be great--as well as more diplomatic missions (or ones using and rewarding commendation points).

However, many of your other objections run the gamut from non-issues to awful.

Having us solve a Q puzzle every time we die borders on masochism.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 93
03-17-2012, 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron
Also your argument ends up being a very confusing character generation system were the player would have no actual control over creating his character,. I cannot accept that ... unless you can at the end you can make changes so making the entire things a waste of time and resources, even Bethsoft TES/Fallout games handled that by a dialog options.
That depends entirely on how it was handled. If the consequences of the selection was always clearly visible to the player from all the available options I don't think it would be an issue. Obviously, physical traits (like, e.g. "Telepathic") cannot be acquired with the test, but things like "Seductive" or "Logical" or "Techie" could. A crude example for one section of the test could be:
"Captain, the Kobayashi Maru was hit by an ion discharge from the nebula and all systems were disabled. The nebula's drift then pushed the freighter across the border into the Neutral Zone. We receive a very weak distress signal that must be sent from a local transmitter from inside the ship. Scans indicate that life support is failing and the crew cannot survive more than 30 minutes. We are out of transporter range. What are your orders, Sir?"

> 1. Contact Starfleet and try to immediately get a hold of the Klingon ambassador. We cannot violate the Neutral Zone without any support. Also broadcast an emergency distress signal describing our situation into Klingon space, perhaps we run across a Klingon captain that isn't as trigger happy as the rest and actually thinks before powering up weapons. [Gain "Diplomatic" trait.]

> 2. Red Alert, maximum power to shields and continous sensor sweeps of the whole sector. Prepare to cross the borders. I am aware that we are in violation of the treaty of <X> and will take responsibility of all consequences. Prepare emergency transporters and beam the Kobayshi Maru's crew on board as soon as we get in range. Once we have the crew onboard get us out of the Neutral Zone asap! [Gain "Stubborn" trait.]

> 3. Engineering, can we modify some of our astrometric probes to work as some sort of transporter relay chain to extend our transporter range? Hasn't been tested? Then start modifying the probes and run some simulation! If we can save the crew without crossing the borders we must try that. [Gain "Techie" trait.]
Also, good point about bringing up TES. Those are actually rather good examples about what I am talking, since the character creation is an integral part of the game and integrated into the tutorial. Just compare the character creation from TES3 - Morrowind with the character creation from Realms of Arkania - Shadows over Riva. One creates immersion within the game and makes your character a part of the world, the other has the charm of a tax calculator.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 94
03-17-2012, 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
Having us solve a Q puzzle every time we die borders on masochism.
*Sigh* ... I give up. If you people don't want to read what I write this is a complete waste of all participants' time.

I repeatedly said that I wouldn't want the Q stuff to come up everytime, but perhaps only every 15th intervention or so. You'd "die" 14 times and Q saves your bacon with a cynical comment deriding your leadership ability and comparing you to some sort of amoeba. The 15th time you "died" he would still save you and demand some sort of payment (read: special mission before releasing you). This payment would be
* a special mission 10 to 20 minutes in length (if you died in single-PvE)
* a short minigame not longer than 1 to 3 minutes (if you died in a fleet action or coop-PvE)
* having to endure an especialy snide comment but no mission or minigame (if you died in PvP)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 95
03-17-2012, 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gingie
The intro was made that way purposefully to tie in with end game content, such as it is.

SPOILER!

In the STF Khittomer Accord you discover a temporal gateway leading back to that very invasion in the intro. You go back a little earlier and lay waste to the borg and damage them significantly enough so your previous self can defeat them with ease.
This was before they butchered the STFs. Now they just don't make any sense.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 96
03-17-2012, 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baelturath
That depends entirely on how it was handled. If the consequences of the selection was always clearly visible to the player from all the available options I don't think it would be an issue. Obviously, physical traits (like, e.g. "Telepathic") cannot be acquired with the test, but things like "Seductive" or "Logical" or "Techie" could. A crude example for one section of the test could be:
"Captain, the Kobayashi Maru was hit by an ion discharge from the nebula and all systems were disabled. The nebula's drift then pushed the freighter across the border into the Neutral Zone. We receive a very weak distress signal that must be sent from a local transmitter from inside the ship. Scans indicate that life support is failing and the crew cannot survive more than 30 minutes. We are out of transporter range. What are your orders, Sir?"

> 1. Contact Starfleet and try to immediately get a hold of the Klingon ambassador. We cannot violate the Neutral Zone without any support. Also broadcast an emergency distress signal describing our situation into Klingon space, perhaps we run across a Klingon captain that isn't as trigger happy as the rest and actually thinks before powering up weapons. [Gain "Diplomatic" trait.]

> 2. Red Alert, maximum power to shields and continous sensor sweeps of the whole sector. Prepare to cross the borders. I am aware that we are in violation of the treaty of <X> and will take responsibility of all consequences. Prepare emergency transporters and beam the Kobayshi Maru's crew on board as soon as we get in range. Once we have the crew onboard get us out of the Neutral Zone asap! [Gain "Stubborn" trait.]

> 3. Engineering, can we modify some of our astrometric probes to work as some sort of transporter relay chain to extend our transporter range? Hasn't been tested? Then start modifying the probes and run some simulation! If we can save the crew without crossing the borders we must try that. [Gain "Techie" trait.]
Now you are changing it so that it is no longer the Kobyashi Maru..... unless all of those options you suggest as examples turned out to be useless failures that still get your vessel destroyed....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 97
03-17-2012, 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
Now you are changing it so that it is no longer the Kobyashi Maru..... unless all of those options you suggest as examples turned out to be useless failures that still get your vessel destroyed....
Exactly.

The Kobyashi Maru did not really had any wrong answer, its simply a psychological test.

This the a problem I have with kimmera reply before, its nothing but a attempt at saying "no, there should be a right answer" ignoring the fact in life there are situations were you cannot escape a loss, even Kirk had to face that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 98
03-17-2012, 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
Now you are changing it so that it is no longer the Kobyashi Maru..... unless all of those options you suggest as examples turned out to be useless failures that still get your vessel destroyed....
It still is. Also, the Kobayashi Maru doesn't necessarily result in your ship getting destroyed. You could always simply warp away, leaving the freighter to its fate.

But anyway...
* Option #1 results in so much lost time with talking and arguing back and forth that the freighter's crew dies because life support has failed.
* Option #2 results in cloaked Klingon cruisers attacking your ship as you reach the freighter.
* Option #3 results in an energy spike frying your transporter, navigation and environmental controls because the transporter beam relayed through the probes provoked another ion discharge from the nebula, leaving your ship adrift and helpless as well.

You just can't have your cake and eat it, at least not in this situation. You cannot save the freighter's crew without endangering (and very likely losing) your own ship and crew. There is no "good" end, but only many bad ends and some neutral ends. The most important question is: "What are you willing to risk in order to follow and uphold your principles?"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 99
03-17-2012, 12:52 PM
Lighten up people, we're on the Holodeck server. With the safeties on.

You don't have a suitably vicious Klingon woman with a bat'leth in hand ready to decapitate you the moment you fail a mission or die during an STF do you? :3
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 100
03-17-2012, 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baelturath
It still is. Also, the Kobayashi Maru doesn't necessarily result in your ship getting destroyed. You could always simply warp away, leaving the freighter to its fate.

But anyway...
* Option #1 results in so much lost time with talking and arguing back and forth that the freighter's crew dies because life support has failed.
* Option #2 results in cloaked Klingon cruisers attacking your ship as you reach the freighter.
* Option #3 results in an energy spike frying your transporter, navigation and environmental controls because the transporter beam relayed through the probes provoked another ion discharge from the nebula, leaving your ship adrift and helpless as well.

You just can't have your cake and eat it, at least not in this situation. You cannot save the freighter's crew without endangering (and very likely losing) your own ship and crew. There is no "good" end, but only many bad ends and some neutral ends. The most important question is: "What are you willing to risk in order to follow and uphold your principles?"
Warping away only works if you don't enter the Neutral Zone at all, which is akin to not taking the test. In the Scenario you can't tell the Freighter's situation until you are already deep in the Neutral Zone. There is no time for diplomacy, the Klingons decloak and open fire. They do not even accept surrender offers.

You are changing the fundamental parameters, and thus changing the test, in other words, 'cheating.' Your cheats still all result in various levels of loss, but you are cheating nonetheless.

The test scenario is deliberately flawed to be unfair. The purpose is to see how the cadet handles loss, not to see how creative they are in a tough situation.
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:18 PM.