Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 101
03-17-2012, 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
Warping away only works if you don't enter the Neutral Zone at all, which is akin to not taking the test.
Actually that is what Sulu did, he chosen not to rescue the freighter.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 102
03-17-2012, 02:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
Warping away only works if you don't enter the Neutral Zone at all, which is akin to not taking the test. In the Scenario you can't tell the Freighter's situation until you are already deep in the Neutral Zone. There is no time for diplomacy, the Klingons decloak and open fire. They do not even accept surrender offers.
Wrong, wrong on so many levels that I'll just let this quote speak for itself:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memory Alpha
In 2285, in the simulated bridge, the cadet was placed in command of the USS Enterprise on patrol near the Klingon Neutral Zone. The starship would receive a distress signal from the Kobayashi Maru, a civilian freighter that had been disabled in the zone after having struck a gravitic mine. If the cadet chose to enter the neutral zone in violation of treaties, the starship would be confronted by three Klingon K't'inga-class battle cruisers. The test was considered a no-win scenario because it was impossible for the cadet to simultaneously save the Kobayashi Maru, avoid a fight with the Klingons and escape from the neutral zone with the starship intact. A cadet's choice of how to handle the rescue operation gave great insight into his or her command decision-making.
There is no set single possible course of action in the original test. It is completely up to the cadet how he wants to handle the situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
You are changing the fundamental parameters, and thus changing the test, in other words, 'cheating.' Your cheats still all result in various levels of loss, but you are cheating nonetheless.
No I'm not. Get your facts straight before making such unsupported claims.
* Kirk reprogrammed the simulation to make the Klingons believe he was a famous captain.
* Chekov self-destructed the ship to destroy the Klingon vessels.
* Scott tricked the simulation into believing in a purely theoretical attack that would never work practically.
* Sulu decided to not violate the Neutral Zone given the consequences (the probability to plunge the Federation into an all out war with the Klingons just to save the crew of a freighter).

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
The test scenario is deliberately flawed to be unfair. The purpose is to see how the cadet handles loss, not to see how creative they are in a tough situation.
Reading comprehension? Where have I said anything about the tutorial Kobayashi Maru not being unfair and unwinnable? And again, wrong information...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memory Alpha
... It was primarily used to assess a cadet's discipline, character and command capabilities when facing an impossible situation as there is no one answer to the problem. ...


Anyway, you've convinced me. I realize that I'm tilting at windmills here and will stop wasting my time here. You are so stuck up and grasping for straws that you completely lose focus of what this thread was intended to do. You don't even remotely consider the options but waste your and my time with senseless arguments. "Only a sith thinks in absolutes" and your pov is about as absolute as it can get.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 103
03-17-2012, 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baelturath
Wrong, wrong on so many levels that I'll just let this quote speak for itself:

There is no set single possible course of action in the original test. It is completely up to the cadet how he wants to handle the situation.

No I'm not. Get your facts straight before making such unsupported claims.
* Kirk reprogrammed the simulation to make the Klingons believe he was a famous captain.
* Chekov self-destructed the ship to destroy the Klingon vessels.
* Scott tricked the simulation into believing in a purely theoretical attack that would never work practically.
* Sulu decided to not violate the Neutral Zone given the consequences (the probability to plunge the Federation into an all out war with the Klingons just to save the crew of a freighter).


Reading comprehension? Where have I said anything about the tutorial Kobayashi Maru not being unfair and unwinnable? And again, wrong information...

None of that is hard canon except Kirk's. None of that (other than Sulu's option) makes sense with respect to the scenario as presented in hard canon (Wrath of Kahn). Scotty's version is Kirk's.. you can't 'trick' a simulation other than by cheating. One self destructing Enterprise wouldn't take out one Klingon vessel short of ramming it, let alone all 3, and destroying the Klingons when the situation is presented as the Enterprise being in violation of treaty would start a war, or at least have HUGE diplomatic repercussions.


Quote:
Anyway, you've convinced me. I realize that I'm tilting at windmills here and will stop wasting my time here. You are so stuck up and grasping for straws that you completely lose focus of what this thread was intended to do. You don't even remotely consider the options but waste your and my time with senseless arguments. "Only a sith thinks in absolutes" and your pov is about as absolute as it can get.
If I am grasping at straws, how come you are treating soft canon as hard, and now quoting Star Wars? I am not the only one questioning your suggestion, merely the most vocal and the most ready to counter your views on canon.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 104
03-17-2012, 02:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
most ready to counter your views on canon.
Which is completely irrelevant since STO itself is not hard canon.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 105
03-18-2012, 03:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baelturath
Which is completely irrelevant since STO itself is not hard canon.
I remind you that this thread, which you happened to start, is titled 'putting the 'star trek' back in 'star trek online.'

You have just shot your request to pieces by way of saying 'the star trek' includes soft canon, and thus is STO is already part of 'the star trek'
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 106
03-18-2012, 04:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
I remind you that this thread, which you happened to start, is titled 'putting the 'star trek' back in 'star trek online.'

You have just shot your request to pieces by way of saying 'the star trek' includes soft canon, and thus is STO is already part of 'the star trek'
Sorry, my bad.

I should have said "Putting the 'Star Trek that-is-not-for-ADHD-instant-gratification-pew-pew-zombies' back in 'Star Trek endless-grind-in-instanced-space-boxes-with-optional-single-player-missions-that-allow-a-buddy-or-two-to-tag-along Online'".

But that would have been too long for a title. I appologize for the confusion.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 107
03-18-2012, 04:30 AM
I don't know who the original poster is but it seems people just shot him down in flames after he had posted something relatively extensive; something he/she had put thought into. I think the post straight after the first shows what I mean.

I think there are some valid points there but I don't see where he held a gun to devs heads and said "change everything or else I'll blow you all to hell"

How about we start again with the discussion?

Firstly I can see where baelturath is coming from about the borg in the beginning but I found it quite exciting being involved in a minor scrap with em. Take that you bounders...... *biff* But the idea of a Starfleet Academy tutorial sounds kewl too.

The levelling concept is already being discussed elsewhere and I personally think baelturath has a point though I wouldn't necessarily do it that way. Maybe less XP from Doff missions for example.

Unfortunately the die and respawn seems to be MMO canon so I was expecting it and it doesn't jar for me as much as maybe it should being plonked into the Star Trek universe. And I'm a crap shooty-shooter-enemy-die type

The mission thread can be ignored at ones leisure but, again, the side missions are standard MMO affair dontcha think? But I would like to see in action what baelturath suggests.

And like I said earlier - these are just ideas. There is no gun to the Devs heads threatening to blow them away if they don't implement the changes.

It is, after all, a discussion thread mwah love you all
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 108
03-20-2012, 07:48 PM
Thread closed as requested by the original poster.
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