Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 81
03-16-2012, 03:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
So you want us all to be Kirk, and have a chance to beat Kobyashi Maru, and all to be Picard, and have an in with Q. This still doesn't explain the death of Tasha Yar, or Kes, or Worf's former mate, or countless others.

And since, in the end, Picard is saved by Dr Crusher (rather than by Q) there is no evidence that Q actually saved him at all. Picard even speculates on that.

By the way, the link you provided says memory alpha has no entry for that episode.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapestr...ext_Generation)
Flowers! Is there a John Luck Pickerd here?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 82
03-16-2012, 03:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil0812 View Post
Sorry, but no. I want to be the heroic Captain of a starship. I don't want to have to advance through the ranks by scrubbing plasma coils.
Do you start in WoW with killing the Lich King and Deathwing? Do you start in LotRO with killing the Balrog and Saruman? Seriously, everything below that level is like scrubbing rusty swords or something!

Also, are you misreading what I wrote on purpose? Where did I say anything, ANYTHING!!! about scrubbing plasma coils?! Did you even read what I wrote? Every single assignment, every single mission you would be doing would promote the story and have you engaged on several levels. Perhaps you first need to defend against bording parties in "ground" combat, then help repairing your ship in a workbee, and then take a shuttle and head off with an away team on a covert-ops. How is that supposedly more boring than grinding Cure Space for the 798765678943258672096279839652340694th time?

My apologies that I didn't write 2367865 pages of mission text, I just wanted to give a general description of how a more immersive gameplay could look like. I thought people would have enough imagination to figure the rest out by themselves but apparently I was gravely mistaken! -.-"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil0812 View Post
As for Q respawning you, there's not much difference between that and what the game does right now.
One is a purely gamist mechanic, the other is at least remotely connected to the setting's background and has several precedences in other games/shows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil0812 View Post
If you want, just imagine that Q is respawning you every time anyway. And besides, what happens if I die too much? Does Q "collect" as you put it and all of a sudden my character just suffered permadeath? That would be really nice when I die due to lag or maybe some game play bug.
No. The "price" I mentioned could be something along the lines of a mission that you must complete before being returned again. It could work sort of like the minigame in Prey.

Obviously (just spelling it out to make sure my words aren't misread again -.-) this special mission would depend on the context in which you died. If you got blown up in PvE it could be a real mission in a really weird environment (like chasing photons with your ship that has been shrunken to sub-atomic levels) or a social mission where you need to find a suitable mate for Q from the local populace of a planet. In cooperative play (STFs, fleet actions, ...) it should be a really quick minigame, and in PvP it should not happen at all (other than a snide comment from Q, of course).

Also (just to be clear again) those missions shouldn't happen with every death, but only after a random number of Q interventions (e.g. somewhere between 9 and 17). In every other instance you'd just be saved by Q with an appropriate comment ("Just a tip: don't try catching Romulan plasma torpedos with your forehead!" or "Seesh. You killed your crew. Again. Perhaps you should request some sort of volume discount with Starfleet Academy!")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil0812 View Post
Additionally, I'd get pretty sick of Q popping up after even the 2nd death. Q needs to be used like it already is in game - in a few, select missions. If Q is there all the time, it makes him less special.
So the death mechanic would make you actively trying to avoid dying because Q is such an annoying douchebag? Wonderful!



@kimmera: that is because the forum software doesn't covert the last ")" to a part of the link (btw, your own link is just as broken as mine). Try copy&pasting the link instead of clicking it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 83
03-16-2012, 04:10 PM
Cold hard reality time:

It's not going to happen. You're asking for a completely different game. Cryptic, short-staffed and underfunded as it is, has enough trouble finishing this game (Klingon faction, 2+ years and counting!) and making it work right (woot, new patch - what did they fix, and what did they break?)

Maybe you'd have fun playing the game you imagine. Maybe some other people would too. But this game is not and will not ever be that game.

If you don't have fun playing this game, I advise you to go play something else. You'll be happier.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 84
03-16-2012, 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baelturath
Do you start in WoW with killing the Lich King and Deathwing? Do you start in LotRO with killing the Balrog and Saruman? Seriously, everything below that level is like scrubbing rusty swords or something!
In the books, Gandalf fought saruman to a stand still and was imprisoned on the roof of isengard, from which he escaped by eagle. Other than that, Saruman was talked down... twice. And there is no 'early career' for Gandalf. He was Mayar, the Middle-Earth equivalent to an angel, and wielding the Elven ring of fire (the ring actually explains any and all of the magic he uses both in the hobbit and in LoTR). Sorry, peeve of mine. He didn't go around announcing his nature so the people of Middle Earth just assumed and labeled him, and many readers just sort of fall for that.

Quote:
One is a purely gamist mechanic, the other is at least remotely connected to the setting's background and has several precedences in other games/shows.
It would be a mechanism that would require significant additional coding, for something just as easily left to the imagination. This is especially true given your response when questioned as to what sort of price would be levied.

Quote:
So the death mechanic would make you actively trying to avoid dying because Q is such an annoying douchebag? Wonderful!
So we should take an ultra conservative view towards risks taken, even though the Federation is involved in multiple wars? Wonderful

Quote:
@kimmera: that is because the forum software doesn't covert the last ")" to a part of the link (btw, your own link is just as broken as mine). Try copy&pasting the link instead of clicking it.
Fair enough, but it is telling that you responded to that aspect of my reply rather than my comments regarding the actual episode you were using as 'evidence.'
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 85
03-16-2012, 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
So you want us all to be Kirk, and have a chance to beat Kobyashi Maru,
Attempt. I never said anything about beating Kobayashi Maru.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
and all to be Picard, and have an in with Q.
Q messed with lots of people in the shows (Picard, Riker, Janeway, ...), so why shouldn't he mess with our captain as well? Also, each and every character has several (!) encounters with the Prophets but that apparently doesn't bother you at all. Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
This still doesn't explain the death of Tasha Yar, or Kes, or Worf's former mate, or countless others.
They were minor characters, not main cast (with the possible exception of Yar). In STO you can lose DOFFs on critical failures on their assignments so we already have a precedence for side characters dying without any chance of the player to intervene.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
And since, in the end, Picard is saved by Dr Crusher (rather than by Q) there is no evidence that Q actually saved him at all. Picard even speculates on that.
As you said: speculation.

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
So we should take an ultra conservative view towards risks taken, even though the Federation is involved in multiple wars?
Oh, I get it. Instead of using tactics and cooperation let's just ZERG the Borg/Klingons/Romulans/villain of the week because we have infinite respawns. Makes total sense to blindly and stupidly just warp in with all guns blazing since we can't die anyway, especially when "involved in multiple wars". Great tactic and use of material and lives. Screw knowledge, tactics and strategy!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 86
03-16-2012, 04:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I would like to see what othrs - heck even Cryptic- would do for a Startrek Online 2. I don't think that (m)any of your suggestions will be possible in this game. Too much changes required. But as the foundation for a new game...

Any one remember Star Wars galaxies? Bioware if you’re listening here is a good post for your next MMO…….

Here is to Star Trek Online the Motion picture era !!!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 87
03-16-2012, 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baelturath
Attempt. I never said anything about beating Kobayashi Maru.
To me there is no point to it being there unless you are at least going to try to beat it. I still don't understand your fascination with that scenario.

Quote:
Q messed with lots of people in the shows (Picard, Riker, Janeway, ...), so why shouldn't he mess with our captain as well? Also, each and every character has several (!) encounters with the Prophets but that apparently doesn't bother you at all. Why?
Because you meet the prophets via a mechanism that is very canon, and they simply tell you off. While various main characters have met Q, he hasn't overtly saved their lives as you are suggesting, other than maybe Picard, once.

Quote:
They were minor characters, not main cast (with the possible exception of Yar). In STO you can lose DOFFs on critical failures on their assignments so we already have a precedence for side characters dying without any chance of the player to intervene.
Yar was significant enough that an alternate yar was brought in, and then later her daughter became a recurring character. You are still hedging though. Q might have saved Picard once, not every second tuesday. By the way, you realize you are talking about Q resurrecting an entire ship, not just the captain....

Quote:
As you said: speculation.
Which is as good as yours (and it was Picard's speculation too, so the speculation itself is canon).

Quote:
Oh, I get it. Instead of using tactics and cooperation let's just ZERG the Borg/Klingons/Romulans/villain of the week because we have infinite respawns. Makes total sense to blindly and stupidly just warp in with all guns blazing since we can't die anyway, especially when "involved in multiple wars". Great tactic and use of material and lives. Screw knowledge, tactics and strategy!
Maybe you find attrition a fun way to win, but most try not to have to go that route. On a ground mission you respawn back at the start of the map (meaning a tedious run back to where you died), and in space you still have to wait to respawn. It is still much more fun to try to win cleanly.

Just because you can try attrition doesn't make it always the best choice, and Q showing up wouldn't reduce the ability to do so. If anything it would beg the question "If Q is willing to resurrect you, repeatedly as necessary, why wouldn't he simply disable the enemy vessels instead?

An alternate theory: Instead of Q showing up, why not simply assume the ship (or landing party) are stuck in a time loop? Not only does it explain a do-over, it also helps explain older ships flying around out of chronology.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 88
03-17-2012, 08:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
To me there is no point to it being there unless you are at least going to try to beat it.
So you've never attempted something with the knowledge that you cannot get the best possible result just to see how far you can make it? So you would never attempt to ring the bell at a high striker because you might know that you were not strong enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
I still don't understand your fascination with that scenario.
As I've already said several times, the Kobayashi Maru is a test of character. How does the cadet face a situation that doesn't have a "best" solution and cannot be "won"?

Would you violate the Neutral Zone in an attempt to rescue the crew of the stranded ship, thus risking your own ship or even provoking a military conflict with the Klingons? Or do you stay away and leave the freighter and its crew to its fate? Do you attempt something entirely different, for example setting up a chain of modified astrometric probes as transporter relays to evacuate the crew without crossing borders?

In game terms your decisions in the test could determine 1 or 2 of your racial traits and/or provide some bonuses to your skills. It's about creating a higher degree of immersion in the setting, combining background and mechanics. Imho it would be much more interesting to actually define some of your character's abilities and traits by ingame decisions than simply selecting them from a dropdown list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
Because you meet the prophets via a mechanism that is very canon, and they simply tell you off. While various main characters have met Q, he hasn't overtly saved their lives as you are suggesting, other than maybe Picard, once.
So it's okay that every captain is Sisko + Janeway (shoot first, ask questions later + being personal with the oh-so-reclusive Prophets + getting away with metric tons of rules violations + getting promotions for doing all sorts of **** that provoke wars left and right), but being Kirk + Picard would be the end of the universe for you? That's a quite double-standard stance you have there.

And there's still the precedence with Star Trek: Borg where Q intervenes heavily regarding a relatively unknown vessel and its crew. You may say "ST:B is not canon", but neither is STO. In fact, STO is much further away from canon than ST:B.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
Yar was significant enough that an alternate yar was brought in, and then later her daughter became a recurring character. You are still hedging though. Q might have saved Picard once, not every second tuesday. By the way, you realize you are talking about Q resurrecting an entire ship, not just the captain....
You seem to miss the point. I wouldn't want Q resurrecting my ship, I suggested (among other options, mind you!) that Q would intervene before my ship would blow up. Freezing time for me, making the incoming torps deal 0 damage while my ship drifts along with 3 hull points left, moving my ship out of the enemies' attack range, stuff like that.

And don't forget that the Q exist outside our boundaries of space and time. Q might know all possible outcomes of our actions down the line (shouldn't be too hard with a self-claimed IQ of over 2000) and thus can easily decide that letting minor character X die makes the whole affair of the USS Whatyouvegot much more interesting to watch. So Q didn't prevent Picard from being assimilated because Q exactly knew that the crew of the Enterprise would be able to rescue Picard, that Starfleet would be able to stop the Borg cube in sector 001, and that only Picard's assimilation would allow him to prevent the Borg from achieving their goal in Star Trek: First Contact. Therefore he didn't intervene and let it happen, watching from above with a bag of popcorn and a cold coke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
Maybe you find attrition a fun way to win, but most try not to have to go that route. On a ground mission you respawn back at the start of the map (meaning a tedious run back to where you died), and in space you still have to wait to respawn. It is still much more fun to try to win cleanly.
Have you recently played in Kerrat or done any STF or faced any Borg incursion? The current game mechanics default to attrition. You can't evade it because the game doesn't give you an alternative! Or what else would you do against those unimatrix ships dealing 3x30k with their plasma torp spread while being held by 3 tractor probes, unable to get away?

Also, the penalties are not nearly as bad as you make them appear. On ground missions you usually have several respawn points along the level, making walking back much less of a pain and the 15s respawn timer in space is barely a hindrance at all. Even more considering that you can squeeze out even more damage to the enemy with your ship's warp core breach. This mechanic alone makes it much more effective to fly close to an enemy and then die than try to escape and repair (since repairing probably takes you also at least 15s but you didn't fire of a 20k damage aoe before going out).

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
Just because you can try attrition doesn't make it always the best choice, and Q showing up wouldn't reduce the ability to do so. If anything it would beg the question "If Q is willing to resurrect you, repeatedly as necessary, why wouldn't he simply disable the enemy vessels instead?
Because that would be boring for Q. Q is like the owner of a dog that likes to watch the dog struggle with several problems, just making sure the dog doesn't kill itself but otherwise letting it figure out the solutions on its own. If you ever had a pet dog you'd know what I'm talking about. Watching your dog trying to dig out or fetch something that is too large for him to handle can be quite entertaining. Obviously you'd keep an eye open that the dog doesn't hurt himself, but you wouldn't intervene otherwise because it's just too funny to watch (at least for quite some time).

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
An alternate theory: Instead of Q showing up, why not simply assume the ship (or landing party) are stuck in a time loop? Not only does it explain a do-over, it also helps explain older ships flying around out of chronology.
Because those time loops are even more rare than appearances of Q?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 89
03-17-2012, 09:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baelturath
As I've already said several times, the Kobayashi Maru is a test of character. How does the cadet face a situation that doesn't have a "best" solution and cannot be "won"?
By cheating.

In fact there is a game called "Star Trek: Starfleet Academy" were the Kobayashi Maru is a mission, just like it was in Wrath of Khan but you have the decision of if you want to cheat or how you cheat to win.

I think because Kirk beat the impossible scenario every cadet attempted to do the same, causing the Academy to eventually shelf the scenario because the only thing it was causing was making Cadets trying to beat it.

Also your argument ends up being a very confusing character generation system were the player would have no actual control over creating his character,. I cannot accept that ... unless you can at the end you can make changes so making the entire things a waste of time and resources, even Bethsoft TES/Fallout games handled that by a dialog options.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 90
03-17-2012, 09:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkstocbr
Simple ....
  • Everyone should wear the same uniform
  • Limit the amount of races in Star Fleet
  • Add real exploration, and get rid of PVP
That would be a start.

There are several things that bother me with STO (i won't list them here it would be too much )

I think everyone has different expectations when it comes to Star Trek. If you ask me, i would prefer if STO where a singleplayer game with optional Multiplayer game modes, everyone could add the Ships/ Uniforms/ Missions and so on he wants in PvE (there some excellent mods for other Star Trek games out there). When it comes to PvP there would only be a handful ship be allowed, so PvP and PvE wouldn't interfere with each other much.


Live long and prosper.
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