Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
03-14-2012, 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahalu
Perhaps a better solution is to give players an ability to provide a resistance against having a buff stripped.

I agree 1000% that buff removal abilities are awesome in PVP and add a ton of strategy to the game... but there's a fine line between legit and cheese. I think that sub nuc crosses that line into being far too Gouda.
Ugh, that kind of turns subnuc into nothing but a gamble. I still think a 30-45s immunity to a second SNB after getting hit with one is the best way to go. When I play on my sci ship, SNB is one of my two "emergency don't die" buttons in pvp, the other being RSP. It also makes it possible to, you know, actually hurt cruisers, without being in an escort.

If I can't strip buffs, and I'm in a sci ship, I'm either very likely to die, or very likely to be useless for anything besides crowd control or harassment.

I can tank well, but it sure can't hold up to someone in an escort with all cannons running a bunch of attack patterns.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
03-14-2012, 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahalu
I agree, perhaps my solution was too simple, but I think a consensus is that it's imba...
I don't think it is "imba".

When you think about balance, you have to distinguish between balance between individual abilities and global balance.

Is EPtS much more powerful than EPtA? Yes of course. But EPtS is necessary to survive in an environment where attack buffs are as strong as they are in this game (compared to unbuffed damage). And therefore EPtS is fine in the scope of overall balance.

And SNB is much more powerful than FomM or some other captain abilities. But does it ruin overall balance? No. It is necessary to counter the massive amount of healing buffs that get stacked on players.


And maybe you haven't witnessed it yourself yet (I think I have been only in 2 or 3 matches like that during the last two years), but there are matches when both teams have incredible teamwork and a third SNB is a necessity to score any points at all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
03-14-2012, 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom
I don't think it is "imba".

When you think about balance, you have to distinguish between balance between individual abilities and global balance.

Is EPtS much more powerful than EPtA? Yes of course. But EPtS is necessary to survive in an environment where attack buffs are as strong as they are in this game (compared to unbuffed damage). And therefore EPtS is fine in the scope of overall balance.

And SNB is much more powerful than FomM or some other captain abilities. But does it ruin overall balance? No. It is necessary to counter the massive amount of healing buffs that get stacked on players.


And maybe you haven't witnessed it yourself yet (I think I have been only in 2 or 3 matches like that during the last two years), but there are matches when both teams have incredible teamwork and a third SNB is a necessity to score any points at all.
I agree.

Matches are very often heal-fests and without snb, they would never end.

As someone else posted, SNB has a small firing arc, long cool down. It doesn't leave you dead, but it may lead to your death if you are on an unprepared team or use poor tactics. There are lots of ways to survive being SNB'ed, some of which have been suggested already, but primarily teamwork is the key.

It is not imba at all. Removing it would be disasterous, and as has been said here before, a partial nerf would only lead to teams with even more science ships to compensate.

Science abilities like SNB are what make this game different and better from your average all tank/all dps games.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
03-14-2012, 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stromgold View Post
I agree.

Matches are very often heal-fests and without snb, they would never end.

As someone else posted, SNB has a small firing arc, long cool down. It doesn't leave you dead, but it may lead to your death if you are on an unprepared team or use poor tactics. There are lots of ways to survive being SNB'ed, some of which have been suggested already, but primarily teamwork is the key.

It is not imba at all. Removing it would be disasterous, and as has been said here before, a partial nerf would only lead to teams with even more science ships to compensate.

Science abilities like SNB are what make this game different and better from your average all tank/all dps games.
Please do not fall under the impression that I am arguing for the removal of SNB, that is not the case.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
03-14-2012, 02:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahalu
Please do not fall under the impression that I am arguing for the removal of SNB, that is not the case.
you may not be saying to remove it but what your suggesting under current game mechanics would make it all but useless.

think about the number of powers a single player has. then think of the number of powers a player has that can be used on another target. now times this by 5 and you see why sub nuc beam as it is is needed to be the way it is. until something is done about the sheer number of powers a target can be buffed by then snb needs to be the way it is.

the only alternative i can think of is this- make 2 different snbs on a 2 minute cooldown with a 2 minute global. one can be used to remove up to 5 defensive buffs, and the other can be used to remove up to 5 offensive buffs.

this way when using it you have to decide if you are wanting to kill a target or stop a target from killing you.

this would "balance" it out in my opinion.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
03-14-2012, 03:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahalu
In most games that I've played, this has been deemed completely over-powered and those powers had been limited to two to three buffs removed. i.e. UO, WoW, AC, ****.
There is nothing wrong with SNB.

There are major differences in the games you list, where yes a complete buff strip would be OP.
Mainly its about buff cool downs. In the games you listed no one ever is going to have 20+ buffs on them... of course that does happen in STO... in most of the games you listed Buffs are not spam friendly. You don't have 30 second cool downs.... or 15 second globals on same system powers like you do in STO.

I survive most sub nukes even in my escort... cause I almost always have healing and defensive skills in reserve. The only way a sub nuke kills me is if it is timed very well in a long fight where I have plenty of stuff on cool down. In those cases I was outplayed and deserved the death.

Subnuke is no more powerful then Attack Pattern Alpha... or Miracle Worker... all 3 are game changing if used properly at the right time. Frankly if Subnuke only cleared 2-5 buffs.. you might as well just delete sci from the game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
03-14-2012, 03:46 PM
Simply learn to play and move on.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
03-14-2012, 04:18 PM
I don't even think it's that useful; Hit a competent player with SNB and he/she will just remove it with a Science team and pop all the buffs back up - it's easy with the short cooldown times.

The real issue, as most people pointed out, is the enormous difference between unbuffed and buffed damage and healing in the game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
03-14-2012, 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahalu
I'm just wondering what the community's opinion is on Sub Nuc's ability to remove ALL current buffs that are running.

In most games that I've played, this has been deemed completely over-powered and those powers had been limited to two to three buffs removed. i.e. UO, WoW, AC, ****.

What do others think of this power?

Since some people seem to be having a difficult time extrapolating my argument:

1) SNB removes all of a player's buffs with no self-imposed limitation on the ability or a control resistance added to provide a chance to resist a buff's removal - OP

2) SNB can be triggered on the same target a second time after the first one, with no limitation, making popcorn pop even faster... - OP

A small balance would be appreciated for this ability IMO. However, I do understand that this is a very important ability and the balance would need to be tested so maybe Cryptic should outsource that task...
stop crying and use a sci team
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
03-14-2012, 06:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The-Shelby-Sensation
stop crying and use a sci team
always the diplomat...
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