Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
04-05-2012, 09:32 PM
I was wondering when the next Carrier thread would stalk forth from the mists of repetition. So, in the spirit of repetition...

Carriers don't make sense unless you plan to fight a war outside of the logistical support range of your bases. Starfleet, unlike the Klingon Empire, does not fight wars of expansion, merely of defence. Starfleet therefore rarely if ever opperates outside of it's own territory in a military capacity. The one time we did see, was into Cardassian space, which is a short journy from Bajor.

At no point during any of the battles in DS9 was a parent ship shown for the fighters. The "carrier credentials" attributed to the questionable kitbashes that made it on screen are unsubstatiated as far as the show's concerned. I think it's safe to assume that a ship 25m long is capable of supporting a small crew during the intervening periods between stops at Starbases. If we speculate that their carrier remained out of the fighting because there's no proof it didn't, we can also speculate that they're generally used as nothing more glamorous as coast guard ships, and their deployment was an act of desperation owed to the 5th Fleet and the Klingons being unable to make it in time to participate in Operation Return. Since both are speculation, neither is more valid than the other of course.

All in all, I think we're pretty firmly entrenched, there are those who think a Fed carrier makes sense, and those who think the idea makes no sense.

Gameplay wise, I think some variation on the Flight Deck Cruiser the Orions have would be one thing, the Starcruiser with it's similar boff layout would be a good bet, having repair drones and weapons platforms etc instead of fighters perhaps. But a full on carrier's too far. The "But what if I want it on an established toon or just don't want a Klingon character?" argument's meaningless unless you're proposing the same be done to the Excelsior, MVAE and Nebula, three ships that have no analogous counterpart KDF side.

All in all, "things the other side don't have" is pretty balanced between carriers/bops/flight deck ships and MVAE/tactical cruiser/flexible multi-roll science ship.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
04-05-2012, 09:43 PM
Hey this is just sciencefiction. Lets just let the Federation have it. Or allow the cruisers & otehr large capital ships the ability to carry peregrines at least. In a way the Oddsey tactical build is kind of like a carrier.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
04-06-2012, 03:14 AM
I suppose my Excelsior Retrofit is kind of a carrier for me. It has a pretty massive hanger deck on the bottom of the hull, and I keep Scorpion Fighters from 'The Vault' equipped in one of my device slots. I don't use them very often, but when I'm in a tight spot it's nice to be able to deploy a few more weapons!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
04-06-2012, 04:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePsycoticVulcan
That link doesn't work.
Was a quotation missing, but doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where the link took you.

fixed now
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
04-06-2012, 09:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebeneezergoode
I was wondering when the next Carrier thread would stalk forth from the mists of repetition. So, in the spirit of repetition...

Carriers don't make sense unless you plan to fight a war outside of the logistical support range of your bases. Starfleet, unlike the Klingon Empire, does not fight wars of expansion, merely of defence. Starfleet therefore rarely if ever opperates outside of it's own territory in a military capacity. The one time we did see, was into Cardassian space, which is a short journy from Bajor.
And now, at this time, we see the need for a war of liberation into Borg space.

Quote:
At no point during any of the battles in DS9 was a parent ship shown for the fighters. The "carrier credentials" attributed to the questionable kitbashes that made it on screen are unsubstatiated as far as the show's concerned. I think it's safe to assume that a ship 25m long is capable of supporting a small crew during the intervening periods between stops at Starbases. If we speculate that their carrier remained out of the fighting because there's no proof it didn't, we can also speculate that they're generally used as nothing more glamorous as coast guard ships, and their deployment was an act of desperation owed to the 5th Fleet and the Klingons being unable to make it in time to participate in Operation Return. Since both are speculation, neither is more valid than the other of course.
Assume, for the sake of argument that you're right. You've already provided a reason to make carriers now.

Quote:
All in all, I think we're pretty firmly entrenched, there are those who think a Fed carrier makes sense, and those who think the idea makes no sense.
This, I think we can all agree on.

Quote:
Gameplay wise, I think some variation on the Flight Deck Cruiser the Orions have would be one thing, the Starcruiser with it's similar boff layout would be a good bet, having repair drones and weapons platforms etc instead of fighters perhaps. But a full on carrier's too far. The "But what if I want it on an established toon or just don't want a Klingon character?" argument's meaningless unless you're proposing the same be done to the Excelsior, MVAE and Nebula, three ships that have no analogous counterpart KDF side.

All in all, "things the other side don't have" is pretty balanced between carriers/bops/flight deck ships and MVAE/tactical cruiser/flexible multi-roll science ship.
Don't the Klingons have a flexible, multi-roll science ship? I'm trying to figure out if there's any reason for you to include that as federation "thing the other side doesn't have." It can't be because the Klingon science vessel is cash shop only, as the "tactical cruiser" and the "mvae" are also cash shop only so clearly you think cash shop ships should count. The Klingon 'multi-roll science ship' is a near direct lift of a Federation design so it can't be because you feel it's defective in some way. Although, to be fair, if I were making this comparison myself I wouldn't have considered Flight Deck Cruisers to be their own separate category either.

And that's ofcourse not touching that the Klingons did have access to a tactical cruiser of Cardassian design, if they wanted it enough to pay/play out the nose and were willing to sacrifice aesthetics.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
04-07-2012, 09:27 AM
Jermbot, you seem to have read things into my post that I don't mean or that aren't the case as they're dependant on clauses that don't exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermbot View Post
And now, at this time, we see the need for a war of liberation into Borg space.
Do you think Starfleet's planning an expedition into the Delta Quadrant? That's where the Borg are based you know. There was a meeting to decide what was going to happen regarding the Borg, it didn't get any further than "so we need to unite against the Borg" before the Dominion showed up. So far, a united Alpha Quadrant foreign policy regarding the Borg menace has not included or even considered a crusade to the Delta Quadrant as far as I can see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermbot View Post
Assume, for the sake of argument that you're right. You've already provided a reason to make carriers now.
This "providing a reason" is dependant on the above notion that Starfleet's planning to go after the Borg in their own territory. I highly doubt this is the case owing to several factors, not least of which is that the distance is monumental.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermbot View Post
Don't the Klingons have a flexible, multi-roll science ship? I'm trying to figure out if there's any reason for you to include that as federation "thing the other side doesn't have." It can't be because the Klingon science vessel is cash shop only, as the "tactical cruiser" and the "mvae" are also cash shop only so clearly you think cash shop ships should count. The Klingon 'multi-roll science ship' is a near direct lift of a Federation design so it can't be because you feel it's defective in some way. Although, to be fair, if I were making this comparison myself I wouldn't have considered Flight Deck Cruisers to be their own separate category either.

And that's ofcourse not touching that the Klingons did have access to a tactical cruiser of Cardassian design, if they wanted it enough to pay/play out the nose and were willing to sacrifice aesthetics.
Let me clear up your confusion regarding what I meant by "multi-role science vessel", I meant the Nebula (which I mentioned by name in the same paragraph), which is unique in that it has a universal lieutenant allowing it to have additional engineering or tactical capacity. The Varanus is a science vessel, but it's pretty much a straight science vessel, it'll never be a science vessel/engineer hybrid, or tactical hybrid, owing to it's lack of universal slots. It is in fact, more or less the same as the D'kyr bar some very minor differences. You're correct in assuming C-store is not relevant to the point.

As for the Galor, that's admittedly largely the same as the Excelsior, but I don't think that a limited time lock-box pomotion can be considered analagous to a fully fledged addition to the fleet roster.

My point is, that a flight deck cruiser would make sense to an extent, as it's primarily a cruiser, not a carrier. It wouldn't seem out of character although I admit we're well past that with our frequent "Rambo in Starfleet Uniform" excertions, but while we need to maintain parity, we also need to maintain what's unique about each faction. I'm not advocating KDF copies of the Excelsior (although it'd be nice), Nebula or MVAM. I was pointing out the fact that somebody's particular reason for thinking Starfleet should get a carrier would also apply to those ships.

A flight deck cruiser's probably a good compromise, would leave "faction unique" ships balanced, and make more sense with regards to Trek lore such as it is in this game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
04-07-2012, 09:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebeneezergoode

Do you think Starfleet's planning an expedition into the Delta Quadrant? That's where the Borg are based you know. There was a meeting to decide what was going to happen regarding the Borg, it didn't get any further than "so we need to unite against the Borg" before the Dominion showed up. So far, a united Alpha Quadrant foreign policy regarding the Borg menace has not included or even considered a crusade to the Delta Quadrant as far as I can see.


This "providing a reason" is dependant on the above notion that Starfleet's planning to go after the Borg in their own territory. I highly doubt this is the case owing to several factors, not least of which is that the distance is monumental.
I think Jermbot was referring to the Gamma Orionis Sector Block, which used to be part of Fed territory (it has the Cestus system and the Mutara Nebula).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
04-07-2012, 10:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer View Post
Why do the Fed's need a carrier again? Can't the Fed's have an advantage over the Klink's and the Klinks have an advantage over the Feds? You know different combat strategies? I'd love to see a Fed' cruiser design that could actually take serious advantage of multiple torpedo launchers.
i for one would love a broadside torpedo battleship, sorry, heavy cruiser. Slide up, pop spread/volley 3 and launch from five port or starboard positioned torp tubes.

They'D be hull hammerers allowing a properly designed team to rip ships to shreds while having shield and hull strength to take a beating.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
04-07-2012, 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePsycoticVulcan
I think Jermbot was referring to the Gamma Orionis Sector Block, which used to be part of Fed territory (it has the Cestus system and the Mutara Nebula).
While that makes considerably more sense initially, there's one thing that renders a carrier redundant in such an endeavour; a transwarp gate which links up to it's counterpart in the same sector block as Earth, Vulcan, Starbase 24, and numerous other "central" Federation places.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
04-07-2012, 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebeneezergoode
Jermbot, you seem to have read things into my post that I don't mean or that aren't the case as they're dependant on clauses that don't exist.
Wouldn't be the first time.

Quote:
Do you think Starfleet's planning an expedition into the Delta Quadrant? That's where the Borg are based you know. There was a meeting to decide what was going to happen regarding the Borg, it didn't get any further than "so we need to unite against the Borg" before the Dominion showed up. So far, a united Alpha Quadrant foreign policy regarding the Borg menace has not included or even considered a crusade to the Delta Quadrant as far as I can see.
Actually yes, what with their recent mastery of transwarp gates it seems possible to consider once things on the Romulan and Klingon fronts have calmed down. But the psychotic Vulcan raises an even better point. The Federation has already been using a fleet of ships as a base of operations in the end game borg zone. That shows the exact circumstances that you're saying would need to exist for a space faring civilization to develop carriers.

Quote:
This "providing a reason" is dependant on the above notion that Starfleet's planning to go after the Borg in their own territory. I highly doubt this is the case owing to several factors, not least of which is that the distance is monumental.
Well, I won't debate the limits of the awesome new technology that Cryptic has tossed into the game, at least not when there's a much easier example to call upon.

Quote:
Let me clear up your confusion regarding what I meant by "multi-role science vessel", I meant the Nebula (which I mentioned by name in the same paragraph), which is unique in that it has a universal lieutenant allowing it to have additional engineering or tactical capacity. The Varanus is a science vessel, but it's pretty much a straight science vessel, it'll never be a science vessel/engineer hybrid, or tactical hybrid, owing to it's lack of universal slots. It is in fact, more or less the same as the D'kyr bar some very minor differences. You're correct in assuming C-store is not relevant to the point.
Thank you, not being even remotely familiar with science vessels I had not made the connection between the Nebula, it's universal lieutenant, and your "multi-role science vessel" terminology. Is the universal lieutenant really such a game changer? I'm asking in honest ignorance, and with a niggling curiosity that I owe to having originally decided to play a tac-oriented science vessel.

Quote:
As for the Galor, that's admittedly largely the same as the Excelsior, but I don't think that a limited time lock-box pomotion can be considered analagous to a fully fledged addition to the fleet roster.
No ofcourse not, unless they start making those boxes available again during anniversary or some such. For the moment we can dismiss it from consideration except where we might wonder if a lockbox carrier, still my favorite solution, could also serve as a compromise.

Quote:
My point is, that a flight deck cruiser would make sense to an extent, as it's primarily a cruiser, not a carrier. It wouldn't seem out of character although I admit we're well past that with our frequent "Rambo in Starfleet Uniform" excertions, but while we need to maintain parity, we also need to maintain what's unique about each faction. I'm not advocating KDF copies of the Excelsior (although it'd be nice), Nebula or MVAM. I was pointing out the fact that somebody's particular reason for thinking Starfleet should get a carrier would also apply to those ships.

A flight deck cruiser's probably a good compromise, would leave "faction unique" ships balanced, and make more sense with regards to Trek lore such as it is in this game.
I can't see any objection to that. Of course, I couldn't stand the turn speed of an assault cruiser so I'm never going to fly a carrier and my interest here is academic. Someone with a personal stake may well demand a full two hangar carrier, and so long as their request was balanced, I'd have to respect that.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:38 AM.