Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Is there a reason that in the PvP arena, escorts frequently have scores of 12-0 or 15-0, while the best any other ship can ever do is about 8-0 once in a blue moon? Are the escort captins so much more skilled than everyone else. Hardly.

As anyone who plays PvP knows, escorts are vastly over-powered. This fact stems from the fact that, as a practical matter, escorts, especially the little defiant things, (1) have the most powerful weapons, (2) are the fastest, (3) have the most offensive buffs available, and (4) have THE BEST EFFECTIVE SHIELD STRENGTH.

Weapon Power: No mystery here. They are the only ships that have dual heavy cannons that can be effectively used. True, the dreadnaught can equip them, but they move so poorly that they are of little use. This limited availabiltiy of the cannons for dreadnaughts makes using the very limited tactical dreadnaught tactical bridge officer abilities on Cannon Rapid Fire pointless, which makes loading the cannons useless. The escorts, of course, can manuver right behind you and blast away with Rapid Fire after Rapid Fire, which they have plenty of with their multiple tactical bridge officer abilities. Even the most buffed up science ship (with supposedly the best shields) can only last 20 or 30 seconds against a close range attack.

Speed: Again, no mystery. The escorts whip around like swallows, easily targets or avoiding whoever they want.

Shields: This is the one people don't realize until they watch an escort survive unscathed after being targented for two minutes by three big ships at once. Although their shield modifier is 0.9, this difference is made up for in spades by their speed and defense bonus. Put simply, if half your shots miss the escort, which they do even if you have ACCx3 beams, the effective shield modifier is 1.8. Yes, you can hit them with a tractor beam and get some hits. What this means in practice is that three dreadnaughts using a tractor beam can kill one escort in about 30 seconds.

Contrast that best case scenario to the typical escort scenario, where a pair of escort can destroy any ship in 15 seconds: 10 seconds (at most) for the targets reverse shield polarity to exppire, and another five take down the shields and hull.

So what needs to be done? Lets start with common sense. Is it logical that a little escort can nonchilantly barrel in on a dreadnauth and just blast away until it explodes, with little concern for its own safety? Is it logical that the most advanced science ship can do little or nothing to slow it down, shut down some systems in a way that actually matters to the outcome of the fight, or confuse its targeting sensors in a manner that cannot be corrected with the click of a "science team I" button? No, of course not.

Common sense tells us that big cruzer or dreadnaught should be able to obliterate a little escort if they are stupid enough to leave themselves an open target for more than 15 or 20 seconds. The escort should have to win the fight using some sort of TACTICS orther than turn on the machine guns and shoot. Common sense tells us that they should have the use their speed and weapons to dart into range, blast away, then escape before they can be targeted for a broadside of beam arrays. They should have to keep their distance from the big ships, and only swoop in close for a strafing run, before bolting away.

So what's a practical way to address this problem. One would be to DRASTICALLY reduce escort shield strength. My guess is that the defiant-type escort shield strength would have to be modified from the current 0.9 to about 0.3 to see the stats in PvP start to balance out. Maybe the other escorts could be dropped to about .4 or .45.

This, of course, makes intuitive sense. Is it reasonable to imagine that an escort would have 90% of the shield strength of a huge dreadnaught, and more weapon power?! Of course not. Even 40% of the shield strenght is stretching it. And regarding weapons, if the escort has "X" weapon power, why wouldn't starship designers just put 5X just as powerful weapons on a dreadnaught?

In addion, the weapons and shield power of the big ships could be DRASTICALLY increased. For example, weapons for big ships that cannot be loaded by escorts could be introduced ( I know there is some spin phaser on the dreadnaught, but judging from PvP this is far too little.) This too makes sense, in that it seems obvious that a big ship should be able to support the infrastructure and power requirements of big powerful weapons that the escort cannot.

Look at differently, the big ships should produce A LOT more power than the little escorts. If the defiant produces power of 100, why would the designers not just put 5 or 10 of those power plants in a big battle ship? What this more power should translate into is shields that are relatively FAR stronger than those of an escort, aux sustems that are FAR more cabable than an escort, and weapons that are at least as, if not more powerful (the only reason I don't say FAR more powerful weapons is the generous assumption that the escorts was designed as a big flying weapon.)

Science ships also need to be buffed across the board, and science bridge officer abilities need to be massivly buffed in power, duration, and effect. In particular, why does viral matrix, the most advanced science buff, not effect enemy shields? Further, science team should only remove science debuffs and other effects of an equal rank rating or lower. (How can the science capabilites of a little escort instantly defeat an sensor attack by the most advanced science ship and crew with the click of a "science team button," it makes no sense.") In other words, if an escort or dreadnaught is hit with scramble sensors II or III, or jam targeting sensors III, they should just have to live with it and not be able to totally negate the effect with the click of a button. Science ships, after all, have no way to negate the effects of the other ships "debuffs", namely getting blown up. Further, tachion beam should be beefed up immensely so that it is a formidable attack. A tachion beam III that stays on target for all 10 seconds at max aux power (which is hard and dangerous to pull off) should drain all the target's shields dry, and leave them scrambling to get away to recover (like an escorts machine gun attack does currently). As it is, even the best tachion beam attack is barely even a nuisance, draining 10-15% of an enemy's shields. If you do all this, and double the duration of all science attacks, the science ship starts to look like a reasonable alternative (assuming the other changes are made).

If all of these suggestions were put into effect, the result would be that it would be hard to decide which ship to use in seriouis combat like PVP, players could pick ships and be successful based on different tactics and styles, SKILL WOULD MATTER, and it would be FUN.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
03-18-2012, 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by killelr123
Is there a reason that in the PvP arena, escorts frequently have scores of 12-0 or 15-0, while the best any other ship can ever do is about 8-0 once in a blue moon? Are the escort captins so much more skilled than everyone else. Hardly.

As anyone who plays PvP knows, escorts are vastly over-powered. This fact stems from the fact that, as a practical matter, escorts, especially the little defiant things, (1) have the most powerful weapons, (2) are the fastest, (3) have the most offensive buffs available, and (4) have THE BEST EFFECTIVE SHIELD STRENGTH.

Weapon Power: No mystery here. They are the only ships that have dual heavy cannons that can be effectively used. True, the dreadnaught can equip them, but they move so poorly that they are of little use. This limited availabiltiy of the cannons for dreadnaughts makes using the very limited tactical dreadnaught tactical bridge officer abilities on Cannon Rapid Fire pointless, which makes loading the cannons useless. The escorts, of course, can manuver right behind you and blast away with Rapid Fire after Rapid Fire, which they have plenty of with their multiple tactical bridge officer abilities. Even the most buffed up science ship (with supposedly the best shields) can only last 20 or 30 seconds against a close range attack.

Speed: Again, no mystery. The escorts whip around like swallows, easily targets or avoiding whoever they want.

Shields: This is the one people don't realize until they watch an escort survive unscathed after being targented for two minutes by three big ships at once. Although their shield modifier is 0.9, this difference is made up for in spades by their speed and defense bonus. Put simply, if half your shots miss the escort, which they do even if you have ACCx3 beams, the effective shield modifier is 1.8. Yes, you can hit them with a tractor beam and get some hits. What this means in practice is that three dreadnaughts using a tractor beam can kill one escort in about 30 seconds.

Contrast that best case scenario to the typical escort scenario, where a pair of escort can destroy any ship in 15 seconds: 10 seconds (at most) for the targets reverse shield polarity to exppire, and another five take down the shields and hull.

So what needs to be done? Lets start with common sense. Is it logical that a little escort can nonchilantly barrel in on a dreadnauth and just blast away until it explodes, with little concern for its own safety? Is it logical that the most advanced science ship can do little or nothing to slow it down, shut down some systems in a way that actually matters to the outcome of the fight, or confuse its targeting sensors in a manner that cannot be corrected with the click of a "science team I" button? No, of course not.

Common sense tells us that big cruzer or dreadnaught should be able to obliterate a little escort if they are stupid enough to leave themselves an open target for more than 15 or 20 seconds. The escort should have to win the fight using some sort of TACTICS orther than turn on the machine guns and shoot. Common sense tells us that they should have the use their speed and weapons to dart into range, blast away, then escape before they can be targeted for a broadside of beam arrays. They should have to keep their distance from the big ships, and only swoop in close for a strafing run, before bolting away.

So what's a practical way to address this problem. One would be to DRASTICALLY reduce escort shield strength. My guess is that the defiant-type escort shield strength would have to be modified from the current 0.9 to about 0.3 to see the stats in PvP start to balance out. Maybe the other escorts could be dropped to about .4 or .45.

This, of course, makes intuitive sense. Is it reasonable to imagine that an escort would have 90% of the shield strength of a huge dreadnaught, and more weapon power?! Of course not. Even 40% of the shield strenght is stretching it. And regarding weapons, if the escort has "X" weapon power, why wouldn't starship designers just put 5X just as powerful weapons on a dreadnaught?

In addion, the weapons and shield power of the big ships could be DRASTICALLY increased. For example, weapons for big ships that cannot be loaded by escorts could be introduced ( I know there is some spin phaser on the dreadnaught, but judging from PvP this is far too little.) This too makes sense, in that it seems obvious that a big ship should be able to support the infrastructure and power requirements of big powerful weapons that the escort cannot.

Look at differently, the big ships should produce A LOT more power than the little escorts. If the defiant produces power of 100, why would the designers not just put 5 or 10 of those power plants in a big battle ship? What this more power should translate into is shields that are relatively FAR stronger than those of an escort, aux sustems that are FAR more cabable than an escort, and weapons that are at least as, if not more powerful (the only reason I don't say FAR more powerful weapons is the generous assumption that the escorts was designed as a big flying weapon.)

Science ships also need to be buffed across the board, and science bridge officer abilities need to be massivly buffed in power, duration, and effect. In particular, why does viral matrix, the most advanced science buff, not effect enemy shields? Further, science team should only remove science debuffs and other effects of an equal rank rating or lower. (How can the science capabilites of a little escort instantly defeat an sensor attack by the most advanced science ship and crew with the click of a "science team button," it makes no sense.") In other words, if an escort or dreadnaught is hit with scramble sensors II or III, or jam targeting sensors III, they should just have to live with it and not be able to totally negate the effect with the click of a button. Science ships, after all, have no way to negate the effects of the other ships "debuffs", namely getting blown up. Further, tachion beam should be beefed up immensely so that it is a formidable attack. A tachion beam III that stays on target for all 10 seconds at max aux power (which is hard and dangerous to pull off) should drain all the target's shields dry, and leave them scrambling to get away to recover (like an escorts machine gun attack does currently). As it is, even the best tachion beam attack is barely even a nuisance, draining 10-15% of an enemy's shields. If you do all this, and double the duration of all science attacks, the science ship starts to look like a reasonable alternative (assuming the other changes are made).

If all of these suggestions were put into effect, the result would be that it would be hard to decide which ship to use in seriouis combat like PVP, players could pick ships and be successful based on different tactics and styles, SKILL WOULD MATTER, and it would be FUN.

Wall of text/Lulz
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
03-18-2012, 05:31 PM
Awe did a little escort make you fall down go boom? Why is it then when someone gets beat in PvP they scream for nerfs to the ship class that owned them. If your cruiser can not stay alive vs 1 escort then you are doing something wrong.

Maybe you should do some reading on the ship build portion of the forums and try to improve.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
03-18-2012, 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by killelr123
Is there a reason that in the PvP arena, escorts frequently have scores of 12-0 or 15-0, while the best any other ship can ever do is about 8-0 once in a blue moon? Are the escort captins so much more skilled than everyone else. Hardly.

As anyone who plays PvP knows, escorts are vastly over-powered. This fact stems from the fact that, as a practical matter, escorts, especially the little defiant things, (1) have the most powerful weapons, (2) are the fastest, (3) have the most offensive buffs available, and (4) have THE BEST EFFECTIVE SHIELD STRENGTH.

Weapon Power: No mystery here. They are the only ships that have dual heavy cannons that can be effectively used. True, the dreadnaught can equip them, but they move so poorly that they are of little use. This limited availabiltiy of the cannons for dreadnaughts makes using the very limited tactical dreadnaught tactical bridge officer abilities on Cannon Rapid Fire pointless, which makes loading the cannons useless. The escorts, of course, can manuver right behind you and blast away with Rapid Fire after Rapid Fire, which they have plenty of with their multiple tactical bridge officer abilities. Even the most buffed up science ship (with supposedly the best shields) can only last 20 or 30 seconds against a close range attack.

Speed: Again, no mystery. The escorts whip around like swallows, easily targets or avoiding whoever they want.

Shields: This is the one people don't realize until they watch an escort survive unscathed after being targented for two minutes by three big ships at once. Although their shield modifier is 0.9, this difference is made up for in spades by their speed and defense bonus. Put simply, if half your shots miss the escort, which they do even if you have ACCx3 beams, the effective shield modifier is 1.8. Yes, you can hit them with a tractor beam and get some hits. What this means in practice is that three dreadnaughts using a tractor beam can kill one escort in about 30 seconds.

Contrast that best case scenario to the typical escort scenario, where a pair of escort can destroy any ship in 15 seconds: 10 seconds (at most) for the targets reverse shield polarity to exppire, and another five take down the shields and hull.

So what needs to be done? Lets start with common sense. Is it logical that a little escort can nonchilantly barrel in on a dreadnauth and just blast away until it explodes, with little concern for its own safety? Is it logical that the most advanced science ship can do little or nothing to slow it down, shut down some systems in a way that actually matters to the outcome of the fight, or confuse its targeting sensors in a manner that cannot be corrected with the click of a "science team I" button? No, of course not.

Common sense tells us that big cruzer or dreadnaught should be able to obliterate a little escort if they are stupid enough to leave themselves an open target for more than 15 or 20 seconds. The escort should have to win the fight using some sort of TACTICS orther than turn on the machine guns and shoot. Common sense tells us that they should have the use their speed and weapons to dart into range, blast away, then escape before they can be targeted for a broadside of beam arrays. They should have to keep their distance from the big ships, and only swoop in close for a strafing run, before bolting away.

So what's a practical way to address this problem. One would be to DRASTICALLY reduce escort shield strength. My guess is that the defiant-type escort shield strength would have to be modified from the current 0.9 to about 0.3 to see the stats in PvP start to balance out. Maybe the other escorts could be dropped to about .4 or .45.

This, of course, makes intuitive sense. Is it reasonable to imagine that an escort would have 90% of the shield strength of a huge dreadnaught, and more weapon power?! Of course not. Even 40% of the shield strenght is stretching it. And regarding weapons, if the escort has "X" weapon power, why wouldn't starship designers just put 5X just as powerful weapons on a dreadnaught?

In addion, the weapons and shield power of the big ships could be DRASTICALLY increased. For example, weapons for big ships that cannot be loaded by escorts could be introduced ( I know there is some spin phaser on the dreadnaught, but judging from PvP this is far too little.) This too makes sense, in that it seems obvious that a big ship should be able to support the infrastructure and power requirements of big powerful weapons that the escort cannot.

Look at differently, the big ships should produce A LOT more power than the little escorts. If the defiant produces power of 100, why would the designers not just put 5 or 10 of those power plants in a big battle ship? What this more power should translate into is shields that are relatively FAR stronger than those of an escort, aux sustems that are FAR more cabable than an escort, and weapons that are at least as, if not more powerful (the only reason I don't say FAR more powerful weapons is the generous assumption that the escorts was designed as a big flying weapon.)

Science ships also need to be buffed across the board, and science bridge officer abilities need to be massivly buffed in power, duration, and effect. In particular, why does viral matrix, the most advanced science buff, not effect enemy shields? Further, science team should only remove science debuffs and other effects of an equal rank rating or lower. (How can the science capabilites of a little escort instantly defeat an sensor attack by the most advanced science ship and crew with the click of a "science team button," it makes no sense.") In other words, if an escort or dreadnaught is hit with scramble sensors II or III, or jam targeting sensors III, they should just have to live with it and not be able to totally negate the effect with the click of a button. Science ships, after all, have no way to negate the effects of the other ships "debuffs", namely getting blown up. Further, tachion beam should be beefed up immensely so that it is a formidable attack. A tachion beam III that stays on target for all 10 seconds at max aux power (which is hard and dangerous to pull off) should drain all the target's shields dry, and leave them scrambling to get away to recover (like an escorts machine gun attack does currently). As it is, even the best tachion beam attack is barely even a nuisance, draining 10-15% of an enemy's shields. If you do all this, and double the duration of all science attacks, the science ship starts to look like a reasonable alternative (assuming the other changes are made).

If all of these suggestions were put into effect, the result would be that it would be hard to decide which ship to use in seriouis combat like PVP, players could pick ships and be successful based on different tactics and styles, SKILL WOULD MATTER, and it would be FUN.
Have you ever flown an escort?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
03-18-2012, 05:33 PM
basically the meat and potatoes of any successful escort pilot is this set up right here. This is why we are killing you in your Odyssey (hope im not being too presumptuous) http://grimygoods.com/wp-content/upl...9/geekdesk.jpg
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
03-18-2012, 05:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldo-Raine
Have you ever flown an escort?
Or any other ship with a decent build for that matter?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
03-18-2012, 05:35 PM
Lol.

Actually in terms of strength in STO especially in 1 on 1 encounters it goes.

Carriers > Cruisers > Everything else
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
03-18-2012, 05:36 PM
Holllly wall of text batman.

Here is an idea... go buy an escort and try your best too be undead. lulz
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
03-18-2012, 05:38 PM
wow. just.....

nope stopping there.

have fun kill bad guys

horizon
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
03-18-2012, 05:38 PM
dont encourage the OP. Hell be back on here with an 8 page essay on how escorts need a buff and how it can be acheived
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