Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Over the years, MMOs as a whole have been slowly but surely killing off player crafting in general, and they've all been doing it the exact same way.

Simply put, whenever loot drop items and/or quest rewards are superior to player crafted items, then player crafted items become irrelevant.

The original SWG, which had the most amazingly in-depth (and complicated) crafting system of it's time also had the most beloved. This was in part because of the "player driven economy" that was an integral part of the game. The other was that the only way to get the best equipment was through player crafting. Random loot drop gear was, in comparison, simply garbage.

Precisely because the loot drops were garbage, player crafting was king. Sadly, that game switched teams and became one of the first game to embrace the "Let's all become a WoW clones" mentality that eventually consumed the MMO world. Eventually it died from this mistake, as it so richly deserved. I had hoped others would follow, but alas, that mindset is too firmly entrenched everywhere, now, to ever go away again. Part of that sad mindset is, as you've no doubt noticed, has been to invalidate the worth of player crafted equipment via the liberal application of uber-loot equipment, either via drops or quests ("missions" in the case of STO).

All top tier (level 50) players know this already: The gear you get as mission rewards trumps anything that you could possibly craft for yourself, or have anyone craft for you. Adding insult to injury, STO decided to add a dilithium cost to crafted materials. Apparently being forced to spend hours on end grinding for "data samples" wasn't enough to truly kill off crafting they way they wanted to, so another barrier had to be added to make players get the hint. What is the dilithium cost of MACO/Omega gear? Zero. How many data samples does it take to acquire? Zero. How many player made items are more powerful? Nil.

It's not just here, it's everywhere. How many games remain out there where player crafted items still trump uber-loot drops and/or quest reward gear? Maybe you can name one - EvE online does come to mind, but then they're still using that "obsolete" idea of a player driven economy, rather than the more popular WoW model, which is why no one plays it (yes, that was sarcasm). Can we name any others? Maybe you can, maybe you can't, but we all know that STO is not on the list.

With that in mind I must question: Why does STO even have a crafting system at all? Once you hit top level, you're not going to be using any of it. Why would any sane person spend hours upon hours grinding for data samples and then spend thousands of dilithium to craft an item that is barely equal to (and most likely worse than) an equivalent piece of gear that they can get in less than ten minutes flat by blasting through a single mission? For free?

Well, we finally got the hint, okay? We get it, now. So it's time to stop mocking your own players, Cryptic. Either give us a valid crafting system; one that allows people to make better equipment than they can get as loot drops or mission rewards ... or put the miserable, pathetic thing out of it's misery; dump the system altogether and just let us have fun running with the uber-loot drops like we have been doing for so long, now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
03-05-2012, 09:45 AM
Considering the best items we have already to craft cost a truck load of dilithium I'd have thought cryptic would want us to use if for crafting instead of converting it to c-points and cutting into their revenue stream.

I'd be quite happy grinding the various dailies for dilithium to craft top spec weapons and kit rather than grinding hundreds of the six STF's with the possibility you'll get nothing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
03-05-2012, 10:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SinistarOne
Over the years, MMOs as a whole have been slowly but surely killing off player crafting in general, and they've all been doing it the exact same way.
To begin with, I agree with you 100% about crafting being a ****-poor afterthought by almost every MMO out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinistarOne
Simply put, whenever loot drop items and/or quest rewards are superior to player crafted items, then player crafted items become irrelevant.
Every MMO does this now, unfortunately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinistarOne
All top tier (level 50) players know this already: The gear you get as mission rewards trumps anything that you could possibly craft for yourself, or have anyone craft for you. Adding insult to injury, STO decided to add a dilithium cost to crafted materials. Apparently being forced to spend hours on end grinding for "data samples" wasn't enough to truly kill off crafting they way they wanted to, so another barrier had to be added to make players get the hint. What is the dilithium cost of MACO/Omega gear? Zero. How many data samples does it take to acquire? Zero. How many player made items are more powerful? Nil.
Actually, Mk XI purple crafted weapons are pretty close to par with the best dropped Mk XI and XII purple drops and STF rewards. There's about 0.1% extra performance gain from the STF MK XII weapons, and they only shine against the Borg, not against any other npc or in PvP. Also the Aegis set is pretty good even when stacked up againt MACO/Omega.

And yes it does blow that the crafted gear takes dilithium, but dilithium is not difficult to earn. You can even get a ton of it just from doff missions. Turn in 3 units of contraband for 2000 dilithium a shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinistarOne
It's not just here, it's everywhere. How many games remain out there where player crafted items still trump uber-loot drops and/or quest reward gear? Maybe you can name one - EvE online does come to mind, but then they're still using that "obsolete" idea of a player driven economy, rather than the more popular WoW model, which is why no one plays it (yes, that was sarcasm).
I've played Eve Online since 2006 and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the uber-loot drops are always 10 times superior to the best manufactured gear. It just so happens that the uber loot drops are incredibly rare and so easy to lose in pvp that they are almost never used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinistarOne
With that in mind I must question: Why does STO even have a crafting system at all? Once you hit top level, you're not going to be using any of it.
Players want it, and yes they certainly do craft at top level. I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinistarOne
Why would any sane person spend hours upon hours grinding for data samples and then spend thousands of dilithium to craft an item that is barely equal to (and most likely worse than) an equivalent piece of gear that they can get in less than ten minutes flat by blasting through a single mission? For free?
I have data samples coming out of every orifice in my body just from doing science doff missions, the rare ones included. Dilithium in abundance too from doff missions and casual daily farming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinistarOne
Well, we finally got the hint, okay? We get it, now. So it's time to stop mocking your own players, Cryptic. Either give us a valid crafting system; one that allows people to make better equipment than they can get as loot drops or mission rewards ... or put the miserable, pathetic thing out of it's misery; dump the system altogether and just let us have fun running with the uber-loot drops like we have been doing for so long, now.
As much as the modern MMO crafting model is lacking, I disagree with your claim that it has absolutely no value whatsoever and that people don't use it. They do and the end game gear you can make is still useful.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
03-05-2012, 10:19 AM
I agree. there is no reason that crafting should not produce something equivalent to the STF drops or the KHG gear
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
03-05-2012, 10:42 AM
Not quite honest on the WoW comparison. WoW crafted gear is and always has been a foundation gear set, at the then relevant end game levels, that you improve as you gain better gear through dungeons, raids or PvP depending on the set. Even the old TBC purples were only starter sets for raids and dungeons. They also had enhancement in mind in the form of enchants and gems. My lock is currently 75 and I have yet to have a decent replacement drop in world PvE for my frozen shadowweave gear, which I made when there was a cooldown on cloth, let alone a crafting alternative.

LotROs' craftng was a tad more complicated but it also gave a chance of gear procing up a level or two, so making an uncommon item had the chance to proc rare with the relevant increase in stats. Though collecting the shards made dilithium farming look like a breeze.

I don't see that approach in this game. Which is a bit of a let down, as I am a crafting junkie.

The dilithium cost is the only reason I stopped crafting gear after captain, upto that point it was always purple or blue crafted gear on my characters. I think it is a tad rediculous to use dilithium as a crafting cost for most things. The set items of Aegis I can just about understand as there is a bonus to them but the rest it is just a waste of dilithium. Especially as there is a one hundred times cost jump in the cost from common at 10dil to uncommon at 1000dil.

Another problem with dilithium and crafting is the insanely low dilithium refining cap. I can pretty much wipe it out in an hour of logging in. Instead of looking at the gear with a dilithium cost and thinking "this is going to be a great improvement for me in my game play" I end up thinking, "is it worth four days worth of refining?". Ususally the answer is no.

The crafting system needs sorting out and made more appealing. They could even link it in with the DOff missions that use data samples.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
03-05-2012, 11:46 AM
Hm, well, yes to the OP. But they have already stated that they are reqorking the crafting system. So... be patient, and have faith.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
03-05-2012, 01:13 PM
crafting the "batteries" should be the perfect idea, but no one like those batteries types in loot drops, doesnt make sense to have them in loot drops anyway when we can make them?

sometime we need to burn those materials that was gathered in Multi-scans, that is lot of extras and we not using those much in crafting, it just grows overflooded in bank that need more craftings.
once we hit VA and we no longer need those materials after doing multiple runs in cured/infected space missions for MACO/Omega upgrades or current episodes that give newer upgrades.

would be nice if we got something new for interior "Ten-Forward" display stands. (this got many new potential ideas), and captain's rooms.

maybe someday, we can craft something for "Holodeck" adventures.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
03-05-2012, 03:24 PM
While I'm not particularly happy with the state of crafting in STO and think that the OP makes some valid points I also think that a number of the core issues with crafting are not really problems with crafting itself but with the general distribution of gear in the game.


Gear Utility

First off Crafted Gear is not useless. Spaceship gear in this game can basically be split into three types: Weapons, Consoles and Utility (Deflector, Engines, Shields).

Weapons: Crafted weapons are on a par with the ones available through other sources (STFs and the dilithium Store). Personally I actually find them preferable since they have a double damage mod instead of the Borg mod the STF ones have. Technically the MK XII weapons are better but those are extremely hard to get since they depend on getting lucky drops and I suspect most people are using MK XI anyway.

Consoles: Crafted Consoles are identical to the ones available through other means excluding a few unique ones (like the Assimilated Console). Nothing else to say.

Utility: This is the one area Crafting does lag a bit. The basic non-set items are comparable to those obtainable through other sources but let's face it most people nowadays use set items so we're really looking at the Aegis set here. I would say that the Aegis set is better than the Breen set and comparable to the Borg set in terms of general utility. It does lag behind the other STF sets but those require a lot more effort to get.


Gear Costs

I agree that there are issues with the gear costs of Crafted gear but I don't think those are really the problem of crafting as much as the problems of the gear distribution system as a whole.

Compared to the dilithium store crafting costs about 80% of the dilithium for an equivalent item. On the surface this isn't actually to bad (although I'd say 60% would be fairer) the core problem is that the dilithium store prices are way to high. Now I'm going by memory here but if I recall correctly crafting gear costs about 8K dilithium for a console, 12K for a weapon and 15K a piece for the Aegis set. So it would take about 201K dilithium (or about 3.5 weeks) to fully equip a ship (I'm using an Escort as the baseline here, Cruisers are a little more for the extra weapon, Science a little less due to fewer weapons).

Now it isn't easy to do a comparison to STF gear. In theory you need about 85 runs to get enough EDCs for weapons and a Borg Set but in practice a few Rare Salvage drops will get you there quite a bit faster. Now more importantly going for STF gear means you can save your dilithium for buying Duty Officers (which frankly are a LOT more important than other gear).

Overall I think the real problem with Crafting Gear costs is the dilithium refining cap. If it wasn't for that the costs would be pretty reasonable but with it the costs are insane. With the current cap I think that the price of Dilithium Store items should be reduced to the following (96K or 12 days to fully equip an Escort):
Consoles: 4000 Dilithium (2 per day)
Weapons: 6000 Dilithium (4 every 3 days)
Utility: 6000 Dilithium (no one will use them anyway but i can't see Cryptic going any lower)

The crafted versions should then be set at about 60%-70% of those costs with the Aegis items being about 8K each.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
is NOT to make gear that's better/equal to drops... It's to fill your bag up with 90000 misc items that serve no purpose other than to make you want to spend $$ to get a bag/bank expansion.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
03-08-2012, 06:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by annemarie30
I agree. there is no reason that crafting should not produce something equivalent to the STF drops or the KHG gear
I agree. What is the point of doing the scans if the items can only produce inferior quality items. Might be nice to see craftable non-Borg antiproton weapons.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:12 AM.