Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
03-21-2012, 07:29 AM
I am going to parrot Hale here. We as the community have tried but when we get attention every so often and that attention really bares no fruit. We are dismissed by the "experts" but we play the game and they do not so really who are the "experts". I am not a programmer I do know that one string of code can be 100% accurate but if there is an error down the line it either breaks something, server crash, or causes minor glitches, Voldermort. So when comments like, "ability X is coded right and looks to be working as intended" and we as the community sees that it isn't. The PvP community is jaded and really I do not see it changing ever. Given I know a lot of you haven't seen me in the Queues lately. I will be back just having a rough stretch with my daughter that was born in Jan.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
03-21-2012, 07:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Data
I am going to parrot Hale here. We as the community have tried but when we get attention every so often and that attention really bares no fruit. We are dismissed by the "experts" but we play the game and they do not so really who are the "experts". I am not a programmer I do know that one string of code can be 100% accurate but if there is an error down the line it either breaks something, server crash, or causes minor glitches, Voldermort. So when comments like, "ability X is coded right and looks to be working as intended" and we as the community sees that it isn't. The PvP community is jaded and really I do not see it changing ever. Given I know a lot of you haven't seen me in the Queues lately. I will be back just having a rough stretch with my daughter that was born in Jan.
Totally off topic but

Grats grats
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13 ...
03-21-2012, 11:12 AM
...
double post
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Greetings,

Part of the problem is the griping against Cryptic. I have always advised people to avoid it, especially in an mmo where we will all be together for years.

There are real problems, my suggestion is that each fleet sit down and write a letter to cryptic, stating what they think the problem is and then mail it to their offices.

Then MOVE ON. Constantly talking about "Crap-tic" or using sigs that have their logo on fire will not help. If it is impossible to get your grievances addressed, you can simply MOVE ON to another game. These are really your only choices, constantly griping and making fun of a group of people who are trying their best to make the game great will not get through to them. I daresay that some of this is because people IRL do not get their grievances addressed and fell more free here to pile on to "faceless" devs.

I do not feel that there is any mendacity or malice on the part of Cryptic towards its players, on the contrary I think they have done their best. As happens in life, sometimes their best falls short. No one is more aware of the problems of STO than I, but I choose to respectfully address them to the devs and send reports of ways to reproduce the problems, I then hit Ker'rat or the Queues and blow up Feds. I respectfully submit this path of action to all the gripers, whiners and general malcontents who think that all Evil in the universe emanates from 980 University Avenue, Los Gatos, CA 95032

Respect, dignity, honor and rational discourse are your friends, and while this is in short supply in our public discourse we should embrace it at every opportunity.

Yours in Mnhei'sahe Plasma,
Star*Dagger
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15 Here comes the Apocalypse
03-21-2012, 11:26 AM
Oh Dear Lord...

I think I agree with Star*Dagger...

I never thought the day would come....

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
03-21-2012, 11:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHale View Post
I bet we could get some attention but we'd have to stop calling them out on, and ripping them a new one, every time they did something stu... less than ideal. A lot of us are our own wost enemies in that regard. We are passionate and we go too far.

No one wants to be told that they are dumb and we aren't very diplomatic when we do it. Maybe if we played nicer!
PVPer play nice... not gonna happen, nope, not gonna happen...

Example:

Me: underpowered fun toon on Kerrat, leave me alone, i'm just trying something out...
Klink: Responds with a lot of weapon fire
Me: Responds with jam sensors, emergency power to engines and evasive manuevers.
Klink: Begins pursute.
9 minutes later, I blow up...

I think the devs get the same treatment. :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Well it's their own darn fault for throwing jam sensors... that just made them a target.


Wait, I might have missed that analogy...


Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
03-21-2012, 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimsonoa View Post
I think my post was misunderstood. I wasnt calling them idiots or stupid. I know Jeremy shows up here now and again I even made a topic thanking him.

I hope season 6 brings something for us.

No man, I understood what you were saying and I agree completely. I love the interaction that the Doff system has. That's the model of how all of STO should be if they could ever allocate the resources appropriately. To be clear, I didn't think you were wrong at all. I just meant that in general we can let the frustration get to us. Not this thread specifically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom
I think at least the J-man is genuinely interested in improving the game and listening to feedback. That is good.

What is bad, and which also leads to problems when interacting with the pvp community, is the devs' lack of knowledge regarding the mechanics of the game.

Did PVPers know that a 80% cloak would be useless? Yes. But the devs didn't.
Did PVPers know that you have to be careful whether to multiply by x or (1-x) when you calculate resistances? Yes. But the devs didn't.
Did PVPers know that a +26% damage console only adds +7.5% damage for a fully specced ship at VA? Yes. But the devs didn't.

And there are more issues where I'm fairly certain that the devs don't really know how their system works. This is understandable, the guy who wrote the original code has probbaly left the company a long time ago.

This is why I think that a necessary first step to better pvp development with regards to balance requires at least one developer who learns how to PVP (not necessarily in the open as a "celebrity" in every match, maybe rather with an anonymous account) and also learn who the knowledgeable people in the community are.

There is a lot of knowledge about mechanics and balance available in the pvp community, but you need to be able to filter it. Learn to distinguish whether some new players who just reached VA are now complaining about "op this, op that" or whether all longtime PVPers agree that something is ruining the pvp fun. Also learn about the different perspectives. If QEW said "buff bops" and TSI said "buff extends", then maybe that advice is not so great even if it is coming from good players with a deep understanding of the game. I think in this regard the pvp community is more difficult to work with than the STF or Doff community where there is little to gain by pushing personal agendas to benefit only their own fleet.

Another problem that hinders interaction between PVPers and devs is what feels like a lack of a design philosophy. One day Stormshade talks about PVP in an esport context, the next day we get P2W ships. What is the design goal for pvp? How is combat supposed to be like? Is balance supposed to be achieved between single ships or for teams in a 5v5 arena? What is the general idea to deal with the differences between PVP and PVE that make some abilities work well in one setting but not the other? Is the low dependency on gear that many players mention as a good part of STO something you want to keep or is pvp gear with the associated grind the future?

It is difficult to give meaningful feedback when we don't know which aspects of a new ability/item/ship are set in stone and which can possibly be adjusted. And whether the main goal is to offer gameplay fun or make money by selling power. Just have a look at the "is this working as intended" thread - I can understand that one would not comment on things that need adjustement, because then one puts pressure on oneself to get it fixed an a reasonable amount of time; but the lack of "yes, working as intended" is really surprising when it comes to easy issues like the power console bonus being cut in half with S5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Star*Dagger
Greetings,

Part of the problem is the griping against Cryptic. I have always advised people to avoid it, especially in an mmo where we will all be together for years.

There are real problems, my suggestion is that each fleet sit down and write a letter to cryptic, stating what they think the problem is and then mail it to their offices.

Then MOVE ON. Constantly talking about "Crap-tic" or using sigs that have their logo on fire will not help. If it is impossible to get your grievances addressed, you can simply MOVE ON to another game. These are really your only choices, constantly griping and making fun of a group of people who are trying their best to make the game great will not get through to them. I daresay that some of this is because people IRL do not get their grievances addressed and fell more free here to pile on to "faceless" devs.

I do not feel that there is any mendacity or malice on the part of Cryptic towards its players, on the contrary I think they have done their best. As happens in life, sometimes their best falls short. No one is more aware of the problems of STO than I, but I choose to respectfully address them to the devs and send reports of ways to reproduce the problems, I then hit Ker'rat or the Queues and blow up Feds. I respectfully submit this path of action to all the gripers, whiners and general malcontents who think that all Evil in the universe emanates from 980 University Avenue, Los Gatos, CA 95032

Respect, dignity, honor and rational discourse are your friends, and while this is in short supply in our public discourse we should embrace it at every opportunity.

Yours in Mnhei'sahe Plasma,
Star*Dagger
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
03-22-2012, 04:18 AM
Hale and Star'Dagger you guys doesnt want to be the representative of the PvP community, who talking with devs (only you talking, other getting ignored devside ) about problems?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
03-22-2012, 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle-Phoenix View Post
Hale and Star'Dagger you guys doesnt want to be the representative of the PvP community, who talking with devs (only you talking, other getting ignored devside ) about problems?
I agree with 1 of those nominations Seriously though, open communication is still the best option... All props to Jeremy for putting up with us, your professionalism is commended.

In truth, we have been told previously, by devs and mods, that we are ignored for being hostile. I'll admit. It's gotten nasty in here a few times... mainly because we were being ignored. Kind of a viscious cycle.

In any good business model, though, ignoring your customers isn't an option. In fact, it's a road to disaster. Granted, we do represent the smallest player group in the game, but we are still paying customers (in money spent or time invested to get someone else to spend their money), and were never deserved of that treatment, or that excuse.

I sincerely hope, and have some optimism, that this is the beginning of a brighter future in the PvP community's relationship with the devs. I will also reiterate something many of us have said before. Rage springs from passion, we wouldn't get angry if we didn't love this game so much. Sometimes, you just have to take us with a grain of salt, and remember that you are responsible for something we love.
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