Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
03-23-2012, 09:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimsonoa View Post
Look at doff forum vs ours lol. We need a pvp Dev nothing against hertic I know doff system is his baby.
Its not christmas yet Crimson. I don't think we will ever see a PVP forum Dev however i wished we did. Some of things they do really need some consideration and since barely anybody reads this forum or at least admits to reading it, I don't see it happening. Fact is that most of the people here criticise alot of what they do with good right because major balancing issues. I think Cryptic is to proud and doesn't have the man power to fix most of the issues they throw at us in the weekly patches.

PVP unfortunately is the most affected area in the game when Cryptic pulls a cryptastic Ship out of the hat or some nice Consoles ect.... PVE is not effected because people won't notice much of a difference. Therefor they won't complain since NPC's don't use fun consoles and OP Ships. Well other then the Tac Cube on Elite with one hit plasma torps which can crit for like 300k Damage.

But yeah it would be nice to see some presence here and maybe consider certain suggestions.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
03-23-2012, 09:37 AM
I'm pretty sure Star*Dagger used JamSensors on the Devs. Thats why they cant see the pvp-forums. :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
03-23-2012, 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleon View Post
PVPer play nice... not gonna happen, nope, not gonna happen...
I play nice... The devs just haven't seen it because I haven't seen them in here.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
03-23-2012, 11:40 AM
Hale's summary is very solid.

It is much easier to maintain productive and civil discourse in an environment where it begins there and is actively maintained with communication that builds a level of trust to act as a buffer against the occasional individuals who will be unproductive regardless.

The duty officer area sees a lot of communication not because of any particular design by Cryptic, but because active communication is something that I personally believe justifies the time investment in healthy environments. The duty officer area specifically sees this because I happened to be the designer asked to shepherd the system to fruition.

Developers at Cryptic - with the exception of moderators, QA and Production - are neither required to or enjoined against posting; it is purely a personal call on the part of the individual developer. It is a significant time investment, and different disciplines and different situations may make it more or less effective as a tool. I believe in the right situations it can be a very useful tool, but I also recognize there are situations where it may not be effective, not the least of which because, let's be honest, it takes a certain degree of masochism for a developer to step into the light.

Different parts of the community and different people in different roles at Cryptic and Perfect World will inevitably have different priorities and a different focus. Even internally, there are different philosophies for design, interpretation of the IP, and execution of the design, and it is the internal processes that occur at any business - and certainly here - that analyze these, prioritize them and sort out what gets done when.

There are painful results of this. Some areas of the game - Klingons and PvP being two good examples - have not seen as much attention, focus and resources as many people - including many internally - would like. This isn't a malevolent plot, but rather a company as a unit taking a hard look at its internal resources, time, schedule, business considerations, dollars-to-people-drawn-in analysis and many other considerations and making what it feels is the best decision for the long term health and future of the game and the company.

Not everyone, certainly not in the community, and not even internally, is always going to interpret or agree with any particular assessment, but that's business and social organization for you - believe it or not, even the CEO doesn't always get what he wants.

Just as some players are passionate for certain aspects of the game and not other aspects, some developers similarly are passionate for certain aspects. When schedules and official company priorities do not line up, individual developers will sometimes come in outside of normal hours and work on things. Some of the Klingon ships, some of the PvP work, the ship interiors, and similar things are all outgrowths of this.

A part of the community that wants more attention can effectively direct this into two places:

First, individuals can make the case for more attention. Logic can help, but numbers speak louder. If lots of people buy Chance Boxes, Klingon ships, consoles, duty officers, or anything else, development resources will tend to follow that.

Second, where the community has ideas and individual developers see an opportunity to turn their own passion into solving a problem, even if it isn't directly on the schedule, the community and developers can work together.

In both of these cases, as much as it may be tempting to express anger and frustration in a hostile way, it will backfire and result in less attention, just as a fact of human nature.

Similarly, things that seem obvious to you may not seem obvious to other people, and in most of the firestorms on the forums I have seen there is missing information, sometimes on just one side, often on both. There is the knowledge that is gained from practical experience, and there is the knowledge that is gained from understanding of the innards of the systems, and good design comes out an amalgamation of both of these. This last point is exactly why I do encourage and believe in supporting frequent communication with the community.

Personally, I play PvP far more than I play PvE, and as I have had time I have tried to address what issues I can, and to champion it internally where I can. Where the community is able to be constructive and an effective, civil partner, and as time and schedule permit, I will happily engage it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
03-23-2012, 11:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
Hale's summary is very solid.

It is much easier to maintain productive and civil discourse in an environment where it begins there and is actively maintained with communication that builds a level of trust to act as a buffer against the occasional individuals who will be unproductive regardless.

The duty officer area sees a lot of communication not because of any particular design by Cryptic, but because active communication is something that I personally believe justifies the time investment in healthy environments. The duty officer area specifically sees this because I happened to be the designer asked to shepherd the system to fruition.

Developers at Cryptic - with the exception of moderators, QA and Production - are neither required to or enjoined against posting; it is purely a personal call on the part of the individual developer. It is a significant time investment, and different disciplines and different situations may make it more or less effective as a tool. I believe in the right situations it can be a very useful tool, but I also recognize there are situations where it may not be effective, not the least of which because, let's be honest, it takes a certain degree of masochism for a developer to step into the light.

Different parts of the community and different people in different roles at Cryptic and Perfect World will inevitably have different priorities and a different focus. Even internally, there are different philosophies for design, interpretation of the IP, and execution of the design, and it is the internal processes that occur at any business - and certainly here - that analyze these, prioritize them and sort out what gets done when.

There are painful results of this. Some areas of the game - Klingons and PvP being two good examples - have not seen as much attention, focus and resources as many people - including many internally - would like. This isn't a malevolent plot, but rather a company as a unit taking a hard look at its internal resources, time, schedule, business considerations, dollars-to-people-drawn-in analysis and many other considerations and making what it feels is the best decision for the long term health and future of the game and the company.

Not everyone, certainly not in the community, and not even internally, is always going to interpret or agree with any particular assessment, but that's business and social organization for you - believe it or not, even the CEO doesn't always get what he wants.

Just as some players are passionate for certain aspects of the game and not other aspects, some developers similarly are passionate for certain aspects. When schedules and official company priorities do not line up, individual developers will sometimes come in outside of normal hours and work on things. Some of the Klingon ships, some of the PvP work, the ship interiors, and similar things are all outgrowths of this.

A part of the community that wants more attention can effectively direct this into two places:

First, individuals can make the case for more attention. Logic can help, but numbers speak louder. If lots of people buy Chance Boxes, Klingon ships, consoles, duty officers, or anything else, development resources will tend to follow that.

Second, where the community has ideas and individual developers see an opportunity to turn their own passion into solving a problem, even if it isn't directly on the schedule, the community and developers can work together.

In both of these cases, as much as it may be tempting to express anger and frustration in a hostile way, it will backfire and result in less attention, just as a fact of human nature.

Similarly, things that seem obvious to you may not seem obvious to other people, and in most of the firestorms on the forums I have seen there is missing information, sometimes on just one side, often on both. There is the knowledge that is gained from practical experience, and there is the knowledge that is gained from understanding of the innards of the systems, and good design comes out an amalgamation of both of these. This last point is exactly why I do encourage and believe in supporting frequent communication with the community.

Personally, I play PvP far more than I play PvE, and as I have had time I have tried to address what issues I can, and to champion it internally where I can. Where the community is able to be constructive and an effective, civil partner, and as time and schedule permit, I will happily engage it.
I love you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
03-23-2012, 11:59 AM
@ heritic:

Since you stated that you champion improving Player verses Player content, I then have a question for you…

Q: what kind of resources do you have, that you can share with us as a mean to inform us, wherefore with such information, we can focus on giving you specific feedback, that won’t waste your time or our time, in seeing Player verse Player content go forward?

For example:

Do you need suggestions to improve the current Player verses Player content? Do you need suggestion as to how to make Player verses Player content profitable in a Free to player model? Do you need feedback more about bugs and tweaks to specific powers and consoles? Do you need feedback on what kind of Player verses player content we would like to play the most?

In General, if you lay out the foundation for our discussion, we might better be able to amicably and constructively give you feedback. But you guys need to lay the foundation as to what is possible and with what kind of support you need from us.

I think that is at least a fair request.

EDIT: I just wanted to say, I love the DOFF system. Really super job! I wish you lead more projects.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
03-23-2012, 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
First, individuals can make the case for more attention. Logic can help, but numbers speak louder. If lots of people buy Chance Boxes, Klingon ships, consoles, duty officers, or anything else, development resources will tend to follow that.

Second, where the community has ideas and individual developers see an opportunity to turn their own passion into solving a problem, even if it isn't directly on the schedule, the community and developers can work together.

In both of these cases, as much as it may be tempting to express anger and frustration in a hostile way, it will backfire and result in less attention, just as a fact of human nature.
Quoting, but emphasis is mine. Thanks Heretic. I have tried, often times in vain, to press this point home. It's good to see a Cryptic employee saying this as well.

That said, some of the things that you are pointing out which need to be addressed in volume can't necessarily be done in volume. Nothing on the C-Store would directly relate to PvP or story driven content. Indeed, both of these areas are lacking severely (due to lack of resources/development made available to users). How would we be able to do this in numbers as a player? Forums can only take us so far and we don't exactly get customer surveys either.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
03-23-2012, 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
<BIG AWESOME POST>
I love you Heretic.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
03-23-2012, 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
If lots of people buy Chance Boxes, Klingon ships, consoles, duty officers, or anything else, development resources will tend to follow that.
I get that. BUT: since we can not buy PvP (or storylines*), how are people supposed to get them more resources? And how do we avoid the cycle of "less players -> less resources -> even fewer players -> even less development"?



*City of... recently added "Signature Story Arcs", kind of like STO's FEs, free to subscribers, but needing to be paid for by free players. Not saying good or bad, just saying.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
03-23-2012, 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
Personally, I play PvP far more than I play PvE, and as I have had time I have tried to address what issues I can, and to champion it internally where I can. Where the community is able to be constructive and an effective, civil partner, and as time and schedule permit, I will happily engage it.
glad to hear it. this forum is generally a friendly place lately, there are a few people that feel so 'burned' that they think the devs are their enemy, but those are few and far between. the only other time theres venom here is when some super opinionated pve'er shows up that gets slaughtered in pvp and people are mean to him in the game chat and feels he has to take it out on us. those threads tend to get ugly, but for the most part we try to help those that ask for it and discuss balance concerns. most of us have quite a grasp of how things work in game, we are stress testing with every match. if something isn't working right, you will find posts about it here.
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