Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
03-23-2012, 06:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic

First, individuals can make the case for more attention. Logic can help, but numbers speak louder. If lots of people buy Chance Boxes, Klingon ships, consoles, duty officers, or anything else, development resources will tend to follow that.
Money talks
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
03-23-2012, 09:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicshower
Money talks
Then what could be sold that could be used for pvp? Sure you could say more ships but the old ones (the consoles mainly) still need some sort of balance pass right?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
03-23-2012, 11:43 PM
Honestly I'm starting to wonder if maybe the best place to start might be a full PVP Balance pass between Ship Powers, Ship Weapons (Phaser Procs OPness.. Transphasic and Plasma Usefullness in space), Ship Devices, Ship Consoles (Theta Radiation), Ground Weapons, Ground Shields, Ground Armor, Ground Kit Powers, Ground Devices, Space shields, Space engines, Space Deflectors, Skill interactions that work, and ones that have not been even possibly turned on yet. (Does Subsystem Repair even work with points spent? And if so, does that mean that Procs from Phasers ignore this skill?) I know some of this has already, and is already being worked on. How ever there are many things that get complained about (Tetryon Glider's Op unresistableness for example) and there never seems to be any word on those issues either.

Bottom line is, the PVP community has seen alot of feed back good and bad and even a large feeling of ignored statements, complaints, or bugs. And Heritic and J-Man are each only one yet seperate person. But I'm wondering how long it might take to get more people at Cryptic involved in perhaps a more detailed, and maybe even long needed true PVP Overhaul.. Because while the game is fun, I don't think anything ever considers what happens in PVP when 5 other people with near identical set ups get together to run the Ques using the more "Over powered" set ups that the local PVE hero can't possibly withstand even if he uses a set up that he got from other Veteran PVP players assistance.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
03-24-2012, 02:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716
Then what could be sold that could be used for pvp? Sure you could say more ships but the old ones (the consoles mainly) still need some sort of balance pass right?
The point being there is no money to be made in pvp. These consoles they have been selling have unbalanced PvP and even better made PvE unchallenging. We can take out an Donatras ship in 1 minute with enough theta vent, acton assmilators and bio neural warheads. Any money they have made so far just unbalances it even further. The payoff would be to make PvP so compelling they would attract new players from the likes of say WoW or Starcraft or any other MMO. It seems to reason at least from where im sitting Cryptic and or PWE is not ready to make that invesment just yet. But with each new ship, console, gear sets, etc its going to only make PVP harder to balance in the future. It makes me cry into my pillow each night
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
03-24-2012, 02:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
It is much easier to maintain productive and civil discourse in an environment where it begins there and is actively maintained with communication that builds a level of trust to act as a buffer against the occasional individuals who will be unproductive regardless.
While it's true that a good attitude on our part is going to help, it's disingenuous to pin everything on the PvP community. The community isn't perfect, but a good share of the blame lies with Cryptic as well. The most important thing to us is balance, and when balance suffers and feedback is ignored people get understandably upset. Right now:
  • We have +1 ships at tier 5!
  • The 75% resistance to science debuffs is a truly terrible idea. Only bearable right now because those resistances are broken against so many powers.
  • Stacking field generators is an equally terrible idea. Even more frustrating because we still don't know if it was intended or not. There are hints that it wasn't intended but Cryptic decided to keep it the way it is. The most aggravating part is not knowing and the devs giving us the silent treatment.
  • SA does not belong on a cruiser. The PvP community was united in posting feedback and hard data to back our position. Of course we were ignored. Worse yet, one of the pillars of the community was perma-banned for stating the truth -- that Cryptic wasn't going to listen to our balance concerns. That isn't a good way to make friends here.
  • Tetryon Glider... nuf said.
  • The pay to win consoles have needed a balance pass for a long time now. You did a good job with AMS recently, but you made an already dubious skill (SS) worthless at the same time.

And let's not forget the constant broken promises about PvP maps, about new additions, about PvP being a new priority because of the PW acquisition, etc.

Really, there's a lot to be unhappy about. It's a two-way street though. Being mean to devs isn't going to help the cause. At the same time, devs ignoring the community, breaking promises, and changing balance for the worse is only going to make the PvP community more hostile. If the relationship between the PvP community and Cryptic is to be repaired, then effort needs to be made on both sides. No amount of being nice to devs is going to help the PvP community if the devs still don't make any changes to the way they do things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
In both of these cases, as much as it may be tempting to express anger and frustration in a hostile way, it will backfire and result in less attention, just as a fact of human nature.
In the long run perhaps. Enough anger and frustration properly vented has in the past led to changes though. Remember cloaked tractor beam mines? Tactical skills buffing resists?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
03-24-2012, 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dribyelruh View Post
SA does not belong on a cruiser. The PvP community was united in posting feedback and hard data to back our position. Of course we were ignored. Worse yet, one of the pillars of the community was perma-banned for stating the truth -- that Cryptic wasn't going to listen to our balance concerns. That isn't a good way to make friends here.
this one especially. in all the interviews and dev blogs and forum posts it was repeated over and over that all the ship stats were subject to change based on feedback. our first bit of feedback was ya frickin right, and then we said SA and cruisers are both known factors and we KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that it will result in an op combination, we even proved it with numbers and tests.

we were immediately attacked by all the pve'ers that have no frame of reference when talking about anything related to balance, never in all their npc killing is there a single instance were player ship balance is even a factor. the thread turned into a mess with arguments between those that knew what they were talking about and those that wanted their new shinny ships to be as overpowered as possible, and were offended that we had the nerv to say we knew better then them, when we did.

and the ships are released with not a single change at all, and geko posts telling us how helpful we are and lists all the bugs they squashed based on our feedback. fine, bugs fixes are good, but adjusting the stats based on our exhaustive feedback, even something small, would have gone a long way to show that we were listened too. but we were ignored again, and those that vocally said they don't want real feedback were vindicated.

the release of the flag ships was a very LOW point for pvp/dev relations imo, but since then j man has been listening and doing his best to fix some ability problems. the dialog has been good and we really appreciate it, the game is improved thanks to our joint effort.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
03-24-2012, 05:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundiata
Oh Dear Lord...

I think I agree with Star*Dagger...

I never thought the day would come....

Me, too. Someone probably hacked his account! :p

We should certainly not get jealous of the DOFF fans having Heretic. (Of course, some of us are DOFF fans as well.)

I try to be rational and objective, but even I can't avoid snark.

I suppose it is the nature of PvPers to be more "antagonistic", but it hurts the relationship with the Devs and other community members on the forums. (NOOB, L2P, "keyboard-facerolling, spacebar-to-win" all don't help either :p)

I suppose the easiest way to deal with us without entirely ignoring the PvP community is to act only on actual data. Be it their own server statistics (funny, why is everyone suddenly equipping the uber shield?) and data the community has collected. Which requires us to do more data collecting.

Even then, we'll never know what their internal goals are. If they need an "uber" ship in the C-Store to have it sell well enough, even our best data won't change their opinion... Neither do we know what's technically feasible to change or how to change. I know we had plenty of great ideas for example how to change RSP to make it more balanced... They went with the possibly simplest approach (reduce duration, increase cooldown). Sad, but maybe practical.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
03-24-2012, 05:15 AM
While I can understand some devs not posting Heretic, it's fairly obvious that any dev rarely ventures here. KDF has gotten more content than PvP, so has the Foundry. The pvp subforum has always been the echo-y hall way of us discussing things with little interaction from a dev here. No one is required as you say which is true, but it would be nice it someone would check in now and again.

Some of us are diehard pvp fans, and love it. I've tried promoting pvp as much as possible. Written a history thread on it, various tactical tips etc. Hell if a coder could pop in here time to time I could fix everything about pvp in no time if someone could just implement some things (more maps, objectives, rewards, a ranking system etc that just about every other mmo has..).

I respect your work but please don't sugar coat it, we all know no one from Cryptic really ever reads these forums. From the countless bugs, broken mechanics, content requests and more it's quite clear. You do realize in over two years we've had virtually no additions to pvp right? One new map that came shortly after launch and the addition of same faction pvp / custom queue system and that's it. Kinda hard to dodge around solid fact.
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