Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
03-24-2012, 01:33 AM
I like the changes, but I was never OCD about doing all the chains etc. Perhaps make a ship's interior 1 map where the turbolifts stealth teleported a character from 1 deck to another. I don't have an issue doing rounds as a captain.

I would like it if the officers we check status of what's available were our Department heads instead of generic officers. Perhaps @ somepoint model the doffs so we see the 5 we assign to ships duties, passengers in the mess hall, and prisoners in the brig as well. One last wishlist would be to have a cargo hold where we could access our personal bank and access mail from the bridge.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
03-24-2012, 01:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrelloid View Post
We already stopped at all the planets (space and ground).

Oh, and its 64 different sector areas btw.

Look, either DOffing is a game, or its click for credit.
-In order for it to be a game, players need to be able to make informed choices about assignments. Ie, the game is optimizing assignments done within limited assignment space.
-In order to make informed choices, its necessary to have a good idea what the 'state of the board' is. That means being able to know ALL the desirable assignments available at one time. The game was already pushed about as far as it could go on that if you were playing solo (64 different sectors to check + old shipboard). DOFFJOBS helped make it bearable.
-New Update added 64 x Ship Contacts places to check. FOR EACH PLAYER. (And you can access another player's list by getting a bridge invite).

CONCLUSION: DOffing is no longer a game. Its click for credit. Its impossible to have any idea what the state of the board is, because the size of the board increases with the number of people you're talking to. Even if we assume you are a hopeless hermit who never talks to anyone, there's still over TWICE as many places to check and that take additional non-trivial time to do so.

In the old version you could really figure out what was out there, then choose a particular goal (Dilithium, cxp in general, focused cxp on on area, chain completion, bonus DOffs) and optimize your assignment selection to fulfill that goal. In the new and really not improved version you might as well take the first 20 plausibly decent assignments you see, because anything else takes FOREVER.

Thats not a game. That's click for credit. I enjoyed DOffing for the game. I'm really not enjoying it now.

Time to DOff per 4h previously: ~1h
Time to DOff per 4h now: >4h, averaging time spent shipboard over its 20h refresh time (even assuming the sector-related shipboards do only cycle every 20h).
This is an excellent post and pretty much sums up everything that's wrong.

It's not that any of us feel like we HAVE to do it because we're addicted or something, it's actually a major part of the game that gives rewards and benefits that are useful in advancing. If we can't make an informed decision because the amount of information is simply too great, then we ARE looking at a click-for-credit or gamble-for-credit system here.

And as mentioned by another person, casual players aren't going to bother with this because of how much of a time sink it is. I know people complain about the lack of things to do in this game, but that's what happens once a game has been out for a while. The hardcore, end-game elites get bored because they've crushed the content into a fine mix of quantum particles with their millions of hours of gameplay.

When people say they want more to do, they mean more FUN THINGS to do. Running around pointlessly to talk to people is not fun. You know this, or you never would have built the "Hail Starfleet" option into the game. you would have made us warp ALL the way back to ESD or K-7 or Sierra-39 or DS9.... but instead we can make a quick transmission over the vast FTL communications network to talk to the missions giver... and even receive rewards that way! Amazing stuff!

This was a step backwards.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
03-24-2012, 01:52 AM
Before the patch I didn't know what to do with all the contraband, now I don't know where to get enough from. That's the worst ***** you could do...well you did it and saved me some bucks I would have spent on roster extensions, thanks. And yes, I found the marauding contact on my ship.

The extreme timesink you created with this changes would have been enoug, in other MMOs cutting down useless running/travelling time is one of the most important points but here? Well, at least this will be fixed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Well unfortunately the situation as it is now seems to be that while there are significant advances in some areas, the advances needed other areas to backtrack a bit. This in turn resulted in all above-mentioned "negative feelings", making the bad sides of the system more obvious. However there are some pretty good ideas in the thread, such as the idea about placing a bank console on your ship to access your PERSONAL bank, as well as a mail console. But...accessing the Exchange would be a bit more problematic from the canon side, although it -would- be extremely helpful for assignments requiring particularly rare items such as Romulan Ale or Tranya (or particle traces of various sorts)

Summary: The Duty Officer system will likely continue to make vast advances forward at the cost of sacrificing some previous good parts until the developer team attached to the system finds a balance between moving forward and backtracking, and there's just about nothing the community can do but point out bugs, give their opinions on what was the best setup, and... well, wait. And as for the second part of what i said about what the community can do, my opinion is that it's a good thing for people like me who just rampaged through the new content and need something longer than 5 minutes of flying at warp 20.93 (which shouldn't be called warp, but that should be covered in another thread) picking out assignments in order to stay in the game for any viable amount of time.

Edit: For that matter, i seem to spend a lot more time on the forums than in the actual game!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
03-24-2012, 04:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalolorn
Summary: The Duty Officer system will likely continue to make vast advances forward at the cost of sacrificing some previous good parts until the developer team attached to the system finds a balance between moving forward and backtracking
I've heard this same bull in WoW posted by company sock puppets there too.

This just in:

This is a game.
The measure of a game's design is its fun factor.
If the game is found to be less enjoyable than it previously was, then the game design is not progressing.

What the devs and "other players" think or say doesn't matter. The only judge of game quality is the individual players who play it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dalolorn
there's just about nothing the community can do but point out bugs, give their opinions on what was the best setup, and... well, wait
Oh? So we should just...wait...for the game to become better...because?

You talk as if we have no alternatives. What nonsense.

The real goal here is to discourage people from saying things that makes devs look and feel bad, by trying to inflict a sense of powerlessness.


But we do have alternatives. We could, you know, just stop playing...stop paying...go do something else with our time...Unthinkable, I know, right?

The biggest mistake WoW made was devs and CMs adopting this same mentality - that the players would never consider that option but just keep paying and playing.

The false duality between "like it or suck it" exists only in the minds of out-of-touch devs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
03-24-2012, 05:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aestu
I've heard this same bull in WoW posted by company sock puppets there too.
Seems the DOFF System is Cryptics answer to Blizzards Paladin...

Hey if the mess people have to waste time with weren't enough they failed again with the rewards, from the patchnotes:
Quote:
The assignment "Confiscate Contraband from Crew" always gives at least one Contraband.too.
No, it doesn't. Damn Hypos, Dosi Rotgut and **** like that...not a single contraband.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
03-24-2012, 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by altrocks
And as mentioned by another person, casual players aren't going to bother with this because of how much of a time sink it is..
I would suggest the opposite criticism - I'm feeling increasingly like I'm getting poor return on my time investment for actually working on the system.

I do probably 2-3 circuits around the galaxy daily on my Fed captain (and I'm starting to skip sectors where I've already crit the Support colony chain to save time). He has a full roster of green, blue and purple DOFF's, but most are stuck sitting on the ship due to the assignment cap. He has a cargo hold full of gamma quadrant commodities that can be turned in for increased CXP, but this process requires tying up several mission slots with 2 hour haggle missions, which reduces the overall rate of return (especially since many of the reward missions aren't all that rewarding). He has completed probably more than half of the assignment chains in the game, but usually the rewards only contribute to the above.

Meanwhile, my KDF character spends 5 minutes twice a day picking up all the missions she can find without going more than half a lightyear from Qo'nos. She is gaining a level every other day, is recruiting DOFFS almost as quickly (especially now that all the recruitment missions are available in the academy), and does not have trouble filling her 20 slots. Sure, she can't do some of the most profitable missions, and sure, she could theoretically be getting CXP faster, but she's spending a fraction of the time. When they're done adding the intercomm button to the department head page, she will even be able to pick which CXP to focus on for faster advancement.

At the end of the day, the main thing my Fed captain gets for his time investment in the DOFF system that the KDF captain does not is the ability to sell rare stuff (traces, Children's Toy consoles, surplus green DOFF's) on the exchange for credits.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
03-24-2012, 07:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evadrepus
Agreeing with the negative opinions...it sounds ok on paper but works out to nothing but pain. It took me several hours to try and check doff assignments, and the fact that assignments are different inside for personal didn't help.

Zone in
Check zone quests
Check personal
Beam to ship
Check personal again
Check diplo
Check tactical
Go to crew deck (if I'm feeling up to it) and try to get beer. usually fails
Go to engineering deck
Check engineer
Check ops
Check scientist
Beam out

.
To add to your list... I have limited roster and inventory space. So to simply complete assignments to be able to take others often requires that I clear space in the rostor or iventory. Like doing sciece or maruading missions or supports and getting refugees. I also store many "materials" and refugees in the mail that are needed for missions and just grab when needed.

I literally spent an hour last nite in BGO zoning back and forth between my ship and and the BGO services. I use to be able to manage all this stuff one or twice a day. Now it feels like every time I get to sector I have check all the assignments then travel to a Bank/mail area then back to where I was, back onto the ship and back down to the officer.

There where times yesterday I completely forgot what I was even doing because of all the zoning and running about.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
03-24-2012, 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evadrepus
Agreeing with the negative opinions...it sounds ok on paper but works out to nothing but pain. It took me several hours to try and check doff assignments, and the fact that assignments are different inside for personal didn't help.

Zone in
Check zone quests
Check personal
Beam to ship
Check personal again
Check diplo
Check tactical
Go to crew deck (if I'm feeling up to it) and try to get beer. usually fails
Go to engineering deck
Check engineer
Check ops
Check scientist
Beam out

All this zoning makes me nauseous, in complete truth. I had to log out several times - all the zoning and the spinning of the camera that happens was making me ill. And there were several voices (but so so few) saying you could do the same missions outside that you could inside, but that would be wrong. Both of the Support missions I did were ONLY avaiable from my OPS person and I could not see them in space.

I'm glad I was waiting until today's paycheck to subscribe. I'm not going to bother until this is revamped. The mostly negative feedback from Tribble should have made this project be held rather than launched, and seeing that there were even a few last minute changes would point out how bad it was. A better idea would be to simply unwind the patch. Hours and hours to do this isn't worth the 20h reset. I'm not doing this in 20h. Instead I'm going to play another game and come back in a week or so and see if the game is worth investing in or not.
Agreed. This was an idea that probably looked good on paper, but the reality is that it is simply annoying.

This is just another example of why the devs need to test things for a longer period of time on tribble. Two or three days is not a real test period. Its more of a passing glance before it goes live. Testing should not be just about finding bugs. It should also be about making sure that changes are needed/wanted before going live with them.

More thorough testing would save a lot of grief and negative attitudes from players. It would also result in less work to be done in correcting mistakes on the live servers, which would mean less downtime for the servers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
03-24-2012, 12:54 PM
Before the patch, I loved doff missions. I kept my ongoing missions at 20/20 almost perpetually.

The old system was great because you could easily compare all the available missions in a sector block instantly. It was clear what the time v. items v. personnel required v. critical attributes v. rewards were comparing across categories. Deciding between a medical mission and an engineering only took 3 seconds.

Now it's a terrible waste of time. I've got to go into the ship, walk to the doctor, activate an annoying activation button per each mission, try to remember the details of those missions, then walk to the engineer and do the same. That takes a minute or more, all told. If I want to further compare those two to the espionage or science missions, well then screw it, it's going to take a long time.

The current system does have one nice advantage, to be able to reliably do one type of mission and find it's mission chains. Great if you only want one or two particular accolade categories.

But overall this system is terrible. I want to get the most accolade points in the least amount of time, and to easily compare which give me interesting rewards (special doffs) versus those that don't (dilithium or data samples).

Why should it take several minutes now to do what we could do until this weekend instantly? Why is there a REMOTE CONTACTS button that lets me contact anyone in the entire galaxy instantly to acquire or turn in missions, but I have to literally walk to each person in my own starship to ask if they can let me start a cooking mission?

I'm tempted to never do another doff mission again. It's too much of a pain, too slow, too cumbersome to compare missions both within and across categories. Screw going into my ship and walking for such a long time, when I should and used to be able to compare them all in one window accessible anywhere.

How about, alternatively, you give us a tab for each contact on the doff window, or, better yet, simply restore all the previous information, but now by including all the new types of fabrication missions and whatnot, too. Just please restore ONBOARD with everything. Playing without it is not much fun at all. When the choice is between detail and fun appears, you're supposed to choose fun. Walking around inside is a choice for useless grind.
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