Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
03-24-2012, 09:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaFox
I avoid pvp mostly due to the mentality of it. Mob rule and unfair tactics, ganking and griefing, those mean pvp to me. It's not a professional sport, more like a prison riot. It brings out the worst of people in my opinion.

I'd compare pvp to being mugged on the street, stabbed multiple times, bleeding out while the thugs make off with my grilfriend to do horrible things to.
Sounds like what PvE players do to mobs... perhaps it is simply a case that PvP holds the mirror up for those PvE-only players and forces them to look at their own actions in a different light.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
03-24-2012, 09:12 AM
I used to do quite a lot of pvp in this game. esp the early days where KDF basicly only had PvP to lvl up. And it was enjoyable back then untill they kept adding in items that made it .. err ... "Anal" (best word i could find) to make a char that does well in PvP. It has devolved a bit in a fest for the lamest tactics instead of epic battles with phases and disruptors blazing. Not to mention adding Fed Vs Fed as one of the options ... *double facepalm* that was just a retarded idea. In my not so humble opinion.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
03-24-2012, 09:16 AM
That was one of the best said near-rants that I've ever had the pleasure of reading. You summed it all up in a post less than 1/8 of a page long. congratulations.

Do you write professionally?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
03-24-2012, 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CedricO
I used to do quite a lot of pvp in this game. esp the early days where KDF basicly only had PvP to lvl up. And it was enjoyable back then untill they kept adding in items that made it .. err ... "Anal" (best word i could find) to make a char that does well in PvP. It has devolved a bit in a fest for the lamest tactics instead of epic battles with phases and disruptors blazing. Not to mention adding Fed Vs Fed as one of the options ... *double facepalm* that was just a retarded idea. In my not so humble opinion.
They could have added Fed vs Fed in another manner - rather than fighting in the same zones that FvK takes place, they could have set up FvF via holographic simulations where Federation captains are attempting to improve their combat skills. That's much easier to swallow...

As for KvK PvP, cannot help but think that should have involved something more along the lines of various House Wars and the like...although, even the FvF holographic would also work for KvK. There's just a bigger opportunity for KvK PvP to be fleshed out than there is on the Fed side with FvF.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
03-24-2012, 09:21 AM
Since it was mentioned, escort alpha is the best example why pvp is an afterthought in STO.

The best pvp team isn't a balanced one, but one with 5 alpha fit escorts. Dual cannons plus turrents on active maneuver stack and active reverse shield polarity, hit a single target and instapop it, evasive out of range in 5 different directions, regroup as skills cool down, make another run, rainse and repeat.

No differences between pvpers and pug noobs, assault or carrier, they instapop all the same. You can faceroll even the "best" pvpers like Panda team with this, especially since many of them take off reverse shield polarity skill in favor of more team oriented skills, not that anyone has the reaction rate to toggle it in time. Tractor is useless even on max skills. Escort's small size and fast speed/agility on maneuver itself is counter to selecting target, and thus ecm. You don't even need good equipment. Result is the same anyway.

I used to run escort teams, then it got old...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
03-24-2012, 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer
Sounds like what PvE players do to mobs... perhaps it is simply a case that PvP holds the mirror up for those PvE-only players and forces them to look at their own actions in a different light.
My own actions in a different light? So by being PVE only i'm not in it for fun and entertainment? That what I actually secretly want is to crush people beneath my boots to boost my own self worth?

Um, no. I actually do pve for fun, believe it or not.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
03-24-2012, 09:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaFox
My own actions in a different light? So by being PVE only i'm not in it for fun and entertainment? That what I actually secretly want is to crush people beneath my boots to boost my own self worth?

Um, no. I actually do pve for fun, believe it or not.
You get your fun and entertainment from crushing NPCs beneath your boots...

...when faced with possibility of being the one crushed beneath the boots of another for their fun and entertainment...

...it could potentially shed a different light on what you are doing in deriving fun and entertainment from crushing NPCs beneath your boots.

Which could adversely affect your enjoyment of PvE... alluding to ignorance is bliss.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
03-24-2012, 09:40 AM
Competition vs Team-Work
I was never interested in PvP. Generally, I dislike competitive games (including sports) and prefer cooperative games (like Roleplaying Games). I found out that STO PvP (and probably more than just STO) also offers a lot of opportunities for teamwork, and overall provided a more satisfying level of variety then the PvE missions.

Experience and Training[ vs Casual Play
A problem with PvP is that it often requires a high level of attention and experience to be really good at it. Just casually PvPing will not yield much enjoyment since you're basically outgunned all the time and lose often. You may call PvE "shallow", but on the other hand, it offers rewards even with less investment.
A better ranked PvP system could alleviate some of these issues for Startrek Online specifically.

Attitude
Then, there is also a social component. It is inevitable when PvPing to engage with people that have a hostile attitude. Not just in the way that people shoot at you - but that some people can get insulting. It is probably the nature of all competitive games that this occurs. It can also happen in group PvE content, but I suspect a little less often. No one really likes to be insulted or ridiculed, so people avoid content that could lead to it. Even if there are just a few bad apples, these bad apples can diminish the enjoyment factor.

Theme
Startrek specifically is associated with cooperation, teamwork and peaceful solutions. PvP seems to be almost the antithesis of this. It is about conflict and battle. The theme of Startrek attracted many people to this game, potentially their first MMO if not computer game. It may simply feel wrong to them to look out a gameplay so much in conflict with Startrek's ideals.

Of course, as I mentioend early - PvP in Startrek Online is about teamwork and cooperation. People may be able to get an unxpected enjoyment out of this and find it more in line wit Startrek then expected. But it's a hurdle and the idea of conflict and battle is still significant part of PvP. It's not all rainbows and sunshine. It's also about finding the most effective or efficient way to blow up the enemy. Cooperations is a means to an end, not its own purpose.

Expectation of Success
In essence, all PvE content is designed so it is inherently beatable by players. Success is usually guaranteed - the question is how hard it is fought for and what it did cost you (be in time or resources).
PvP is different- there is no guarantee you can win. Ideally, it's designed that in a fight between two equally strong groups, there is a 50:50 chance for either side to win - but there is no guarantee you actually fight an equally strong group - you may end up in a signficantly weaker one, and then your win chance is a lot less than 50 %. It may even be so close ot 0 %.
Of course, theoretically everyone has a chance to get the experience, reflexes or gear and all that than any other player. Practically, you can often not overcome all the differences, and if just due to lack of time to play as much as others.

PvP vs PvE conflicts
PvP requires a balance between the factions and the different characters. Characters enjoy a niche or role protection, but no character can be simply superior to the rest. This requires a lot of balance tweaks to maintain. But these balance tweaks inevitably trickle into the PvE of the game as well. And there, it does matter a lot less normally if character A or character B is stronger. They are never in a competition in the first place. Worst case scenario is your build is not tolerated because it's to weak for an STF, but even there, the nature of the different expectation of success for PvE vs PvP makes it likely that even weaker builds can contribute and succeed. In the end, it usually means that only the person that gets a nerf really feels affected by PvP balance changes - and there is little reason for him to like that, because if he wanted to have a weaker build, he'd have played something else.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
03-24-2012, 09:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaFox
My own actions in a different light? So by being PVE only i'm not in it for fun and entertainment? That what I actually secretly want is to crush people beneath my boots to boost my own self worth?

Um, no. I actually do pve for fun, believe it or not.
I don't think that is what he was saying. In response to someone stating that pvp was about "ganking" and not a fair fight, he responded that that is the same method that pve players use, except that they are the pack and not the prey. (When you and a team are running an STF don't you all "gank" the Tactical Cube?)

As for the "fair fight", pve is definately not a fair fight. If the NPCs won 50% of the time, it might be considered a fair fight, but then most players would whine stating that it was 'too hard'.

I play both pve and pvp, and I can tell you that pve is a cakewalk, even on elite settings. There is no real challenge there, and that is why I pvp. It is not because I "want is to crush people beneath my boots to boost my own self worth". Its because it is a challenge that cannot be found anywhere else in STO. NPCs will never be as good or effective as a real player.

When I queue for an STF, I know that I will win. When I queue for PvP, I hope that I will win. That is what makes it worthwhile.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
03-24-2012, 09:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stromgold View Post
not the prey.
That's a good way of putting it. Many players do not want to be the prey.
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