Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 271
04-08-2012, 11:07 AM
Originally Posted by psychoijediboy
Anyone who wonders why many people avoid PVP like the plague needs to read this paragraph a few times from the point of view of someone who's never tried PVP.

No matter what they say, the attitude from "elite" PVPers is that they don't want anyone new joining PVP. They have no patience for anyone who has a learning curve. The only way they'll accept new people is if the newbie shuts up and does exactly what the "elite" players tells them. Their opinions are facts and their word is law.

Seriously, why WOULD anyone new want to subject themselves to that environment? To learn to accept someone else's definition of fun? This is the attitude I've seen all over this board about PVP. It's incredibly unwelcoming. It doesn't hurt my feelings because I have zero interest in PVP to begin with, but I can certainly see why someone with a mild interest might not be in a hurry to try it or to stick around after a bad experience.
That's just so untrue it's not even funny. I think Pveers (especially in this game) get their perceptions colored by a handful of factors. Most of us pvpers -want- more blood into the ques. We want a challenge. While most of us pvpers have gotten to know each other quite well (and some of us love to hate each other. Just ask Mikey :p there's still somewhat of a bond there between us.) and enjoy each other's company it's always more fun when you don't know what the other guy is going to do. What team they are going to field etc.

My own group of guys is half trying to cobble together a Premade, once the news of this got out into Opvp, no less than Five members of the two best fleets each in the game (TSI and Sad Pandas) immediately made offers to help us get something rolling, whether it was hopping on with us for a few nights, or just general advice and team work coaching. (which I think we will benefit the most from).

As far as "their word is law" goes, STO is a game with some seriously -bad- options out there. I like to call them the Timmy Powers, because like Magic has the Timmy card where it looks cool on paper, it's heinously bad as a build choice in execution. It's when the newbie PvEer expresses Zero interest in actually getting better and starts bad mouthing the pvpers that we as a rule tend to get fussy. For example, anytime anyone comes in ranting that Escorts are OP or whatever is OP, and it's someone we don't recognize, first we offer to help, and offer suggestions... when the Pveer/Rper in question starts insulting us, and that we're wrong and he obviously knows better. That's when the gloves come off and the insults fly. We see it time and time again. Then you get the pveers that come onto this forum, and whine about how evil and bad we are. Which doesn't help our attitude any either.

I will say this about the two communities... the PVE Crowd tends to talk alot more smack in Kerrat, and in STFs than the pvpers do in zone, fleet, team speak, or opvp. That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

There are powers that are Worse, no matter how you cut it than others. There are no circumstances in which the bad power is a good choice, vs another ability. (Jam sensors is a Great example of this) this isn't debatable, or even an opinion, a ship with X Terribad power, will probably lose against another team of equal skill if the other team isn't using the power. Let alone when you have the usual gap in skill of the guys being experienced enough to know better than to field X Terribad power, vs the ones that don't know better yet.

Most pvpers are willing to help people learn. But most people (even pvpers) can be Terrible teachers. They don't show examples, nor explain why things are bad. Or why another option is better. However, I've also found some people just aren't willing to learn anything period. They'd rather chalk it up to "the bad man touched me and his ship is clearly OP". Fortunately, there are some standout pvpers and pveers, on both sides of the fence, student and teacher out there.

The whole reason I even started my Cruiser thread initially was I will admit partly for selfish reasons, as an Escort pilot I was really tired of seeing people fielding the worthless powers like Boarding Party (any version), Jam Sensors, and Aux To battery on their cruisers, or seeing Tac captains in star cruisers. I was tired of the only healing being done being my own. I was tired of hearing people getting rolled in pugs simply cause people wouldn't even throw a single Extend Shields out to them. Tired of rolling people over completely on the other end, when I got people together and qued up and tired of seeing the same old crap threads in pvp gameplay about how X is OP when it's the weakest class to play, while they are flying the second strongest. It wasn't until maybe my second or third build suggestion, when people started sending me messages thanking me for making the thread and how much it helped them that I really got into working for the community. I dusted off my engineer and started field testing builds again. And discovered that I do actually enjoy teaching people. It's also taught me some things in the process that I'd forgotten.

The satisfaction I get from people telling me that I helped them and their builds, and that they are enjoying pvp and found pve much easier much more now, is actually greater than I get for quing up and getting a victory. I know it sounds corny, but it's true.

By and large actually the STO Pvp community, is a very friendly one. I've seen Bad Communities before in other games. (Us East in Starcraft Broodwar or the lowbie ranks in Halo... Nuff Said) This one isn't bad. At least not on the pvp side. People that you run into in the ques aren't just pvpers. There's alot of Jim Kirks out there and these are usually the smack talkers. If they just happen to win they feel they are the awesomesauce, cause frankly they don't win that often. The guys that actually play in teams across multiple fleets are generally the pvpers, you can generally recognize them when they are qued up in their own fleet team for a night or another night, and then a night after that or sometimes even during the same night you see them still on their original toon, qued up with a different fleet, and still playing well. Most of the STO Pvp Community is like that. We really don't distinguish much between fleets anymore. Partly cause we've been kicked around by Cryptic always told "next season" for our content, had balance changes made that ran completely counter to what -should- have been done, and then kicked around by the pve community, but also cause frankly, we're social and enjoy making friendships.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 272
04-08-2012, 05:51 PM
Forgive the wall of text but it was an excellent day full of all the reasons I enjoy PvP.

I agree with Mavario. The PvP community can be very polite and helpful. I wrote an in game email to another who has posted a build guide. I thought nothing more would come of it, but their advice changed my game so much I had to thank them.

Just as I was about to announce to my fleet that I was going to bed for the day, (when you work graveyard shifts you do that, you know, sleep during the day), I got a tell from the fellow who posted the guide inviting me to PvP with him and a group of friends.

This is the second time I have found myself running with Sad Pandas and the first that I can think of that I found myself in the company of TSI, (The Spanish Inquisition), well on the same team at least. Two of each fleet were what kept my green stick butt from popping a lot more than I did for them. They were courteous and very helpful. I made a point to thank when I saw one bail my ignorant heinnie out of trouble and when one complimented me on how well I dealt damage I again thanked them and made a point to imply that I was looking to do better. For that they gave me some more advice. Which I took as graciously as I could.

We even vexed a KDF team. One of those players did not feel it was a good game. I felt bad and apologized. I know intimately well how it feels to get steamrolled. When you are on the receiving end it just feels bad as you give your best and can't get the time to really get a good scrap in. On the dealing end the sensation was a touch different. It was like in The Blood of Heroes when they get to the Red City and Joan Chen's character Kira sees how the pros Jug for the first time, and she marvels to herself, "I didn't think it could be played so fast."

Oh and those two Fed Cruisers who kept battling even when the other three members of their team just up and quit. I respect them for seeing it though like they did. They really tried.

Be nice, be open to learn, and stay flexible. I know I messed up but what I focused on in PvP with the Sad Pandas and TSI to the best of my ability was to try to shoot what they shot, try not to have target fixation, (if it wasn't dying quick enough I looked for a squishy while I keep pounding on the rock, better yet when I could I made it a squishy someone else is already beating on), and try to toss the heals I could. I know I could have done better. I know I missed a lot more than two heals. Still they were patient with me and fun was had.

All said though the best PvP of the day happened much earlier in my fleet' casual PvP meet we have every week. This week was three on three and despite my best efforts both of my teams lost. One of my fleet bosses doubled my damage in PvP but I was able to put up a good fight. When the match was over and I had checked the parser and found he had nearly doubled my damage so I got him to tell me how. Even when I lose in PvP if I can out up a good fight that challenges my opponent and I learn something from it, well that is better than any steamroll ever, well almost any there was that last match. Given that they were all from the same well respected fleet and they have wiped the floor with me more than once in the past. Even they were great sports about it and they will get me back I know that is set in stone.

Special thanks to my hosts and my opponents today. Best day of in game PvP ever. Still can't beat the real thing but this carries a lot less risk.

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