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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
03-24-2012, 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer
What's so wrong that if you cannot do something or that you do not want to do something... that you do not get the reward that you would for doing it?

I'd like to make $100k a year watching TV, reading books, going for walks, swimming laps in a pool, shooting pool, etc, etc. No, I'd have to get a job where I'd like end up performing some form of "grind"...so to speak.

I've never understood that sense of entitlement.
Exactly. There is nothing wrong with the system they have in place, other then maybe some prices.

People are either money rich or time rich. If you make money but have no time, then you can buy c-points. If you have lots of time and no money, you can grind Dilithium. If you have no money and time, dont expect things to be handed to you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
03-24-2012, 12:37 PM
The whole point of auto refinement is that you can do your grinding at your own pace. If you want to play one hour each day or eight hours in one day, it shouldn't matter as long as the net gain isn't dramatically more one way versus another.

The problem is, the current system favors one hour a day over eight hours, once a week.

This is something a lot of MMOs have shifted on, for example WoW converting some of its dailies to quests that reset once a week and can be completed seven times.

This balances the results so that the people who:

- plays one hour every day
- plays seven hours once a week
- plays three and a half hours twice a week
- plays two hours four days

... all get the same rewards.

That seems to be the whole point of auto refinement but it doesn't end up doing that in practice because dilithium ore is so heavily gated.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
03-24-2012, 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
If we were talking about real life usefulness and market rewards, you know, being a productive adult, you'd be right.

But this is a game, it's made for people to have fun, an escape from the drudgery and grind of daily life.
I'm curious what games you play...

Quote:
And we've been told, over and over, repeatedly, by the Devs, that they want to reward players for time spent in-game. If that's their goal, then they have failed horribly by creating a system that only well rewards time spent doing specific things.
I play...I get EC. I get items that might be better than what I have. I can replay missions to upgrade items. There are rewards all over the place...

I do not run STFs. I do not get STF gear. That's my choice. I don't complain to Cryptic about my choice.

Quote:
If I spend 4 hours in game, I should get rewarded whether I'm doing PvP or Daily PvE missions. Rewarding grinders exponentially better than one rewards casuals is not a time based reward, it's a reward for people who don't play the game so much as work the game.
They reward effort...and that is your issue?

Quote:
And what's more, lets look at this from the standpoint of the Dilithium road to the C-Store:

A Grinder, who gets as much Dilithium as they can each and every day, has the wherewithal to get anything in the C-Store at no cost to themselves, so there's little to no profit for PWE in that road.
Not true in the least. The CP that the Dil Grinder is buying are not Magic CP that just appear. They are CP that somebody has bought. If there were not people farming the Dil, it would drive the exchange rate to the point where a person would rationally determine it would be better for them to farm it themselves than to buy the CP to sell on the C-D Exchange.

Quote:
A Casual may purchase C-Points, but they're going to do it far less often than they would if they had a modest amount of Dilithium-bought-C-Points on a regular basis to combine it with.
Your suggesting that a person that needs to buy fewer CP would buy more CP? After having said that people that Grind Dil results in no profit because of no need to buy CP? Really?

Quote:
I have <50 C-Points at the moment, and less than 12K Dilithum (spread between all six of my characters). Even if I trade all my Dilithium, I'm only going to get ~48 C-points. That's not going to buy anything worthwhile, even if I buy 500 C-Points, since ~600 C-points will only buy the T2 Ships, a Doff Pack, or maybe a few Inventory spaces, certainly nothing worth spending money to get right away.
That's right. You either have to buy more CP or you have to spend more time earning that Dil. You may have to delay your gratification...rather than have everything handed to you now.

Quote:
On the other hand, if I could fairly easily build up 7-800 C-Points just through Dilithum in the space of a week or two, I would be enticed to skip that last 2-3 weeks of waiting and just buy the other 500-1000 C-Points to buy that T4 or T5 Ship I'm drooling over. And the patient slow-grinders who don't mind waiting? They're already willing to grind it up without paying, so there's no profit lost there.
So you want to be able to grab near $100 worth of CP via Dil in a week or two... you realize that it would destroy the pricing in the exchange and nobody would buy Dil...thus, you couldn't get what you wanted anyway.

You want 244 days worth of Dil for a single toon in a week or two?

Quote:
More Dilithium means more C-Point purchases, more Dilithium on the market would also tempt me more to buy C-Points to trade for Dilithium to gear that new ship..
No, it doesn't mean that. Do you know nothing about supply and demand? If Dil's so easy to get, the number of people that would buy CP would decrease or the amount they would buy would decrease...since it would be so easy to get.

Quote:
Additional non-grind sources (it's already gated at 8K a day, why limit it to dailies?) of Dilithium will result in happier customers and more C-Point sales, what's the downside?
You've defined "additional non-grind sources" as a trickle for simply being logged in. Having to log in to get that trickle while playing is a grind. We should just get it for having an active account...

...I'm flabbergasted.

I know there is no way that I could have possibly read some of the things you said the right way, thus the reason there are so many questions asked there...

...I'm just flabbergasted.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
03-24-2012, 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
The whole point of auto refinement is that you can do your grinding at your own pace. If you want to play one hour each day or eight hours in one day, it shouldn't matter as long as the net gain isn't dramatically more one way versus another.

The problem is, the current system favors one hour a day over eight hours, once a week.

This is something a lot of MMOs have shifted on, for example WoW converting some of its dailies to quests that reset once a week and can be completed seven times.

This balances the results so that the people who:

- plays one hour every day
- plays seven hours once a week
- plays three and a half hours twice a week
- plays two hours four days

... all get the same rewards.

That seems to be the whole point of auto refinement but it doesn't end up doing that in practice because dilithium ore is so heavily gated.
A) You play one hour a day for seven days, you'll have 56k Dil.
B) You play one day for seven hours, you'll have 56k Dil.
C) You play three and half hours twice a week, you'll have 56k Dil.
D) You play 1.75 hours a day for four days, you'll have 56k Dil.

If you're Gold, regardless of which scenario you play - you get your 56k Dil.

Without it though:

A gets their 56k.
B only gets 8k.
C only gets 16k.
D only gets 32k.

The current system favors people subscribing to the game to get the perk from being Gold if they can't play every day.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
03-24-2012, 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer
A) You play one hour a day for seven days, you'll have 56k Dil.
B) You play one day for seven hours, you'll have 56k Dil.
C) You play three and half hours twice a week, you'll have 56k Dil.
D) You play 1.75 hours a day for four days, you'll have 56k Dil.

If you're Gold, regardless of which scenario you play - you get your 56k Dil.

Without it though:

A gets their 56k.
B only gets 8k.
C only gets 16k.
D only gets 32k.

The current system favors people subscribing to the game to get the perk from being Gold if they can't play every day.
You just described how it should work.

But for that to work, 56k ore in one day over seven hours needs to be NO LESS accessible than 8k ore a day is in an hour of play.

The problem is, getting seven times the amount of ore you can refine in one day takes over seven times as long as getting the amount of ore you can refine in one day.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
03-24-2012, 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
You just described how it should work.

But for that to work, 56k ore in one day over seven hours needs to be NO LESS accessible than 8k ore a day is in an hour of play.

The problem is, getting seven times the amount of ore you can refine in one day takes over seven times as long as getting the amount of ore you can refine in one day.
Because of the various cooldowns involved on some of the Dil missions...hrmmm, can see that. While it's easy to blow past that 8k mark in a day...hitting that 56k mark on the other hand.

I suppose part of the issue I had with seeing that, is that I tend to look at it as doing it on multiple characters...not trying to do it all on the same character. You can get more Dil running 4 characters than you can on one....

...in regard to the Gold perk though, I still think it's mainly there as a convenience for when you do play - rather as a measure of how much you can get.

If I farm 12-16k or more on a single character on day one, but do not play on day two - as a Silver play, I'll only have the 8k that I converted on the first day. The second day will not be converted. When I log in on the third day, I can convert that second day's worth - but any that I get that day, I will not be able to convert until the next day. If I do not play the next day, then it will be the day after that.

If I'm Gold though, when I log in on that third day - I haven't lost that second day as I did as if I were Silver.

Still though, I see what you're saying about the amount of time involved in getting the same amount on a single character - it favors the person that can play in intervals more than the one that can play in a lump...

...just never thought of it that way since I play multiple characters.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
03-24-2012, 01:32 PM
My point is, ultimately, that Cryptic is being far too conservative by double gating dilithium so fiercely and it makes the 800 day reard and auto refinement pointless.

As long as there is a refinement cap, ore needs to be offered very freely from all or most activities as long as the amount offered is appropriate to the time investment
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
03-24-2012, 01:56 PM
Like I said, I don't know anything about that particular Vet reward... but I do see the value in the Gold perk as I explained.

I can earn more Dil in a day than I can refine. That surplus will build up unless I do not earn any Dil in a day (or over a period of days, etc). With regard to refining that surplus, if I'm Gold and choose not to play a day, I do not fall behind like I would if I'm Silver. Thus, that provides a perk.

No doubt I'm gated not only in the 8k, but also how much total I can make in a day...but that does not remove that "Hey, I'm going away for the weekend and won't be able to refine some of that surplus" perk that Gold offers.

For somebody that plays every day, obviously it would not provide any benefit...they're always playing and can always refine.

It's basically just a perk for those with a surplus that have days they do not play.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
03-24-2012, 01:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
My point is, ultimately, that Cryptic is being far too conservative by double gating dilithium so fiercely and it makes the 800 day reard and auto refinement pointless.

As long as there is a refinement cap, ore needs to be offered very freely from all or most activities as long as the amount offered is appropriate to the time investment
I think the solution to that would be to add more ways of getting Dilithium Ore without reducing the yield of pre-existing methods.

By the same token, I would like to see them start adding systems that have several tiers worth of involvement, with a monthly opt-in to maintain access to each tier. This opt-in should be relatively easy to achieve. But if they add several such systems, short of buying RD on the exchange, we'd only be able to maintain highest Tier in one... MAYBE two of them. Introduction to those systems would cost no Dilithium. That way anyone regardless of playstyle can participate in the mechanics, and contribute to the system. Only if they find it fun and engaging would they feel inclined to make the prerequisite for the first opt-in tier.

There just need to be enough ways to obtain Dilithium.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
03-24-2012, 02:12 PM
If they increased the overall amount a person could earn on a single character, should they gate it based on account then?

If it is a case that you can make 32-64k a day unrefined on four toons, should they gate it based on some average number of characters? If you have 3 characters and could make 24-48k, should you be able to make all 48k on a single character...but not necessarily be able to make 144k off of 3 toons if you had them?

For those that want to play a single character...

...if so though, what about those people that run 5-8 or more characters? They'll end up getting less. Should it be based on the number of characters you have available?

1-2, X amount.
3-4, Y amount.
5-6, Z amount.

Etc, etc, etc?
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