Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Ship categories...
04-25-2012, 06:06 AM
I've been playing for a short while now, and it's always bugged me that certain ships are intended for certain functions. Granted, the Defiant is primarily intended to be an escort and the Olympic etc, is evidently suited for science vessels, but in most cases, the ships should be pretty universal.

Lest face it, all of the Enterprise variants throughout the series, we're exploration vessels first, but could kick a Romulans *** when required.

I know this has been mentioned somewhere before, and I recently heard it on Priority One Podcast 70, but couldn't we select what our ships are for, having a more universal approach.

I play as a science officer, and I know that I can fly any ship I want, but as far as I can tell, excluding all of the ship stats for hull and shields and turn rates etc the only thing that really governs what a ship can specialise in is the Boff and console allocations.

To make an excessively long point shorter, when I pick a new ship, I want the option to select the Boff stations to suit me. Have a fixed number of slots available, but allocated ranked slots, not career slots. Basically I want the option to have a Soverign with 3 Science officers if it suited me.

It could still be fixed that you have to have a minimum of 1 of each Boff but then make all others universal, decreasing in rank. Obviously the console slots would need to be adjusted, but this could be approached in the same fashion. Minimum one of each and the rest are universal.

Hopefully this made sense and other people have been having similar thoughts (reading back I didn't get to the point very quickly but stuff it!).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
04-25-2012, 06:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdeacon2k4
Lest face it, all of the Enterprise variants throughout the series, we're exploration vessels first, but could kick a Romulans *** when required.
Actually we only saw one successful fight between an Enterprise and a Romulan ship and that was Balance of Terror. The TOS Enterprise defeated a Romulan ship that was so behind starfleet tech that it didn't even have a warp core, just fusion reactors. In TNG the Enterprise-D never went toe to toe with a Warbird in a straight fight. The screen evidence we saw showed that both ships would probably wreck each other quite effectively in a direct slug-out. In Nemesis, we saw a Reman warbird turn a Sovereign class into swiss cheese with little difficulty.

As to your concern about ships being too specialised, I share it. I'd love to have a Galaxy glass with higher level tactical boffs than the dreadnought has. But Cryptic seems to think that would unbalance the game. However, there are a few ships like the Odyssey that would give you what you want.
Lt. Commander
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# 3
04-25-2012, 08:40 AM
So your asking that every ship be like the BoP?

That doesn't seem fair really, the BoP gives up an Ensign station (at T5) to balance it's Universal Stations and yet your not giving up anything and asking for the same result.

Now the Enterprise was a Cruiser compare it to Voyager which was a Sci vessel nearly getting worked in every fight it got into and running more than just slugging it out.

I do understand where your coming from but that really really throws out the balance of the game in the Federations favour IMO, and that is not fair. It also breaks PVP logic, in that now I see a Sovreign I have no idea what it is, will it be firing off Grav Wells and Viral Matrixes left right and Center or Chaining BFAW with Omega and or will it be a Cruiser.

And with a fully variable internal ship layout, why is anybody going to be flying a Science Vessel to have 6 weapons slots when a Cruiser will do the same job with 8? Heck an Escort will be able to Science better than a Sci Vessel under your rules.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
04-25-2012, 08:49 AM
I understand your point but there must be a way of opening up the Boffs to suit the player.

Perhaps, using the Sov for an example, as a cruiser you have to have the 2 Engineering positions, but instead of having to have 2 Tactical and 1 Science, you could have 2 Science and Tactical, therefore keeping its basic purpose set.

Ganging further, the consoles can work the same. You have to have the standard number of Engineers consoles but the others are open for some adjustment.

I would just like the option to use a Sov with my Science Captain and keep more of my Science Boffs and consoles instead of having to use Tactical all the time.

I dont see why that would be as much of an issue.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
04-25-2012, 09:41 AM
Actually, the various ships in ST -were not- the same, and this is in keeping with basic ship engineering. You don't build twenty different classes of ship that all do the same thing the same way...that just gets you twenty different lists of parts you need to manufacture and keep track of to keep your fleet operational. The only reason to make different classes is to pursue different mission requirements...hense the catagories of ship.

A good illustration is in ST3. Starfleet did not send a heavy cruiser (Constitution II class) or a light cruiser (Miranda class) to study a brand new planet, because those ships were designed as general-purpose patrol ships (Cruisers). The ship they sent was the Grissom, a science ship that had almost half its hull dedicated to sensors and data processing. Why? Because that ship type was designed to do the task of analysis and detection far faster and better than a general patrol ship, and at a lower operational cost. As was evident in that scenerio, however, Grissom performed quite a bit below a Constitution II class when it came to combat.

Every class of ship is going to be different than other classes of ship, and each catagory is going to be different from other catagories because each had a different purpose and technology base when they were laid down in the design process. To expect a Nova class to perform as well as a Prometheus in all areas (and vice versa) is ignorant of naval design and production, not to mention poor operational planning. Some crossover may exist, but on the whole each willl do some things better than others, and it is this that lets a fleet operate to full effectiveness by having ship classes that cover the weaknesses of other classes (something that is unavoidable if you want optimal performance in any ship).

Lastly, try to remember that commanding officers of starships are almost never asked if they'd like to rip out their Bridge weapons station in favor of a second helm station. Typically, an officer is told what ship they will command and they are stuck with what is given them. They might be able to petition for some equipment upgrades or a specialized mission module, but radical changes such as would change the number and/or type of major ship systems would be the jurisdiction of Fleet Engineering Command, and require extensive (months or years) of shipyard time....at the end of which, the ship would be recommissioned as a totally new class rather than its old one.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 6
04-25-2012, 10:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by danqueller
Lastly, try to remember that commanding officers of starships are almost never asked if they'd like to rip out their Bridge weapons station in favor of a second helm station. Typically, an officer is told what ship they will command and they are stuck with what is given them. They might be able to petition for some equipment upgrades or a specialized mission module, but radical changes such as would change the number and/or type of major ship systems would be the jurisdiction of Fleet Engineering Command, and require extensive (months or years) of shipyard time....at the end of which, the ship would be recommissioned as a totally new class rather than its old one.
So by your logic my science captain shouldnt have access to the cruisers in the first place, I should be given a choice of 3/4 Science vessels.

I do understand everyone's argument, and I'm not asking for a fundamental change to the balance of the ships, but the opportunity to swap one of the non career specific Boffs and consoles to suit your career shouldn't change that much.

At the end of the day, all I want is to be able to play as a science captain with all the enterprise variants in a vessels that can do just a little more science.

Perhapse based on your statement above, this could be mission specific. At the start of missions, it asks if you would like to change your Boff allocations to suit your mission, the same as the away team selector.

Pvps could even have it as a selectable option. Surely going into a fight and not knowing who to pick on first would add a bit of variation sometimes (I don't play pvps by the way so don't shoot me, I just think I would spice things up a bit).
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# 7
04-25-2012, 11:01 PM
Furthermore, I think all I'm asking for is essentially the same as the Ody variants.
Lt. Commander
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# 8
04-26-2012, 12:10 AM
Actually if your going to get technical they give you a standard ship and your engineering tactical and science department customizes it to its needs. Say you have 50 % science then your going to setup your ship different from a heavy hitting tactical/escort setup. It would be more like the BoP where you put officers in where you need them. How many times did you see spock hop over and look in view finder of uroha's station on the show. When they promoted beverly crusher to captian her ship was a cruiser fited to do science if i remember correctly. I like the idea of having more customizing. say a ship has 12 total BOFF spots and 10 Consoles. You assign each spot before buying it. Heck you could end up with 3 commander level boffs and 5 tactical 3 science and 2 engineering consoles if you want. heck even a defiant could be setup with 1 less tac console if you need to scan better. But thats my opinion
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
04-26-2012, 12:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdeacon2k4
I understand your point but there must be a way of opening up the Boffs to suit the player.

Perhaps, using the Sov for an example, as a cruiser you have to have the 2 Engineering positions, but instead of having to have 2 Tactical and 1 Science, you could have 2 Science and Tactical, therefore keeping its basic purpose set.

Ganging further, the consoles can work the same. You have to have the standard number of Engineers consoles but the others are open for some adjustment.

I would just like the option to use a Sov with my Science Captain and keep more of my Science Boffs and consoles instead of having to use Tactical all the time.

I dont see why that would be as much of an issue.
Your option exists in game already, it's called a Star Cruiser. If you hate the look but want the function you've got to make a Sacrifice. I wanted to fly a Galaxy but I fly a Sovreign because it suits my purposes and play style better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdeacon2k4
So by your logic my science captain shouldnt have access to the cruisers in the first place, I should be given a choice of 3/4 Science vessels.

I do understand everyone's argument, and I'm not asking for a fundamental change to the balance of the ships, but the opportunity to swap one of the non career specific Boffs and consoles to suit your career shouldn't change that much.

At the end of the day, all I want is to be able to play as a science captain with all the enterprise variants in a vessels that can do just a little more science.

Perhapse based on your statement above, this could be mission specific. At the start of missions, it asks if you would like to change your Boff allocations to suit your mission, the same as the away team selector.

Pvps could even have it as a selectable option. Surely going into a fight and not knowing who to pick on first would add a bit of variation sometimes (I don't play pvps by the way so don't shoot me, I just think I would spice things up a bit).
Nobody is saying a Sci Captain shouldn't fly or be allowed to fly a Cruiser. We're saying pick a ship and live with the decision. Not convert it to something else.

The first thing I quote is telling you that the Sovreign you seem to want is in fact the Star Cruiser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdeacon2k4
Furthermore, I think all I'm asking for is essentially the same as the Ody variants.
Interestingly enough your asking for the Odyssey but you seem to ignore that it exists. Why would they give it away when they can sell it. If they stop making money the game dies and nobody gets anything.

Buy the Odyssey and end this discussion, save your Dilitium or just fork over some cash.
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 10
04-26-2012, 12:41 AM
Basically, it is done for gameplay reasons. By all rights, a B'rel class BoP should not be blowing up Soverigns and Galaxies, but I do it all the time in Ker'rat.

To make it a fun game, you have to have some sort of balance.

The only thing that frustrates me is when they introduce things like the Odyssey, which is clearly OP and continue to let such top of the line ships like the Sovereign and the Galaxy be slightly below par.

The Galaxy-R should be every bit as good at tanking as the Odyssey, but it is not.
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