Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 101
03-27-2012, 10:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHale View Post
If they were thinking about PvP they weren't basing it on anything that people who actually play PvP said. It seems almost universally agreed that this nerf is not the right one.
Maybe, but I think this is the same problem all MMOs which feature PvP have: Players put things together in combinations the developers never imagined and/or intended. That's not to say the combinations don't appear valid to the player. Indeed, they may appear logical. But, without an understanding of design intent (and some would argue, even WITH knowledge of design intent), players will come up with combinations that fit their view of how the game should run. This inevitably leads to a buff/nerf cycle because a few things were never intended to come together. (Star Trek Online is not unique in that regard.)

It seems to me that the nerf does and doesn't make sense. Doesn't in that some things change for the worse - and not necessarily good that they do. Does make sense in that there is some inherent logic to the changes. It seems like the consoles may have been too powerful at the beginning (thus preventing their stacking) - but that nerf didn't necessarily follow where the developers intended. So, this is the next nerf to try to get it more inline with what is expected. (And for disclosure, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the decision but simply trying to understand it.)

I am, however, puzzled by the decision for another reason. If the skill revamp is causing unintended consequences all across the board (e.g. racial/traits, consoles, set bonuses, powers, etc), would it not make sense to go back and revisit the effects of said revamp rather than doing it one item at a time? This change is either the first of many major balance passes or it is a heavy handed singular one. My thinking is more toward the former rather than the latter, but I am not telepathic.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 102
03-27-2012, 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jam062307 View Post
This is crap....nerf a useful console into uselessness unless you stack them!!! crap. Make them not stackable and keep them where they were!
Pretty much this kind of thing is a bait and switch they offer you something you buy it up and then they make it useless. I'm pretty much not buying anything else from them unless they get more accountability with what they are selling.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 103
03-27-2012, 10:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeuxidemus
Pretty much this kind of thing is a bait and switch they offer you something you buy it up and then they make it useless.
Keep in mind this isn't constructive feedback. Everyone agrees to the ToS when they setup their account. As a major part of that ToS, it does say that things are subject to change without warning. Everyone agrees to this provision in order to setup the account and login.

So, let's move on to more constructive feedback. What about this particular change isn't working for you and why? (This is much more likely to get it changed.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 104
03-27-2012, 10:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuntKathy
Maybe, but I think this is the same problem all MMOs which feature PvP have: Players put things together in combinations the developers never imagined and/or intended. That's not to say the combinations don't appear valid to the player. Indeed, they may appear logical. But, without an understanding of design intent (and some would argue, even WITH knowledge of design intent), players will come up with combinations that fit their view of how the game should run. This inevitably leads to a buff/nerf cycle because a few things were never intended to come together. (Star Trek Online is not unique in that regard.)

It seems to me that the nerf does and doesn't make sense. Doesn't in that some things change for the worse - and not necessarily good that they do. Does make sense in that there is some inherent logic to the changes. It seems like the consoles may have been too powerful at the beginning (thus preventing their stacking) - but that nerf didn't necessarily follow where the developers intended. So, this is the next nerf to try to get it more inline with what is expected. (And for disclosure, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the decision but simply trying to understand it.)

I am, however, puzzled by the decision for another reason. If the skill revamp is causing unintended consequences all across the board (e.g. racial/traits, consoles, set bonuses, powers, etc), would it not make sense to go back and revisit the effects of said revamp rather than doing it one item at a time? This change is either the first of many major balance passes or it is a heavy handed singular one. My thinking is more toward the former rather than the latter, but I am not telepathic.
I am a tac in the Defiant-R, and I PvP all the time. I love PvP. Let me tell you my reasons for liking, and disliking this nerf.

1. This is a great nerf because it will make tac ships, and any ships that have 2 or less science consoles easier to kill. Because like a previous poster said, if you want to keep your Borg universal, then you will have to take out an armor, or something in your engineering. If you take out something in your tactical slots, you will be less deadly.

2. This is a terrible nerf cause it will take away my shields. Anybody who has 3 science console slots will be unkillable. The MVAM escort is going to be a great ship now because of this. And I won't even be able to touch ships that have 3 of these. Before is was great. A ship could only have one, and that gave everybody a standard. Now there is no standard.

So, all in all, I think this nerf is terrible, so PLEASE PUT IT BACK THE WAY IT WAS!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 105
03-27-2012, 10:45 AM
so is there supposed to be a loot container now for ecd's on a ground map?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 106
03-27-2012, 10:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HamRadio18
1. This is a great nerf because it will make tac ships, and any ships that have 2 or less science consoles easier to kill. Because like a previous poster said, if you want to keep your Borg universal, then you will have to take out an armor, or something in your engineering. If you take out something in your tactical slots, you will be less deadly.
Right, this seems to be their intent. Making difficult choices is often a view many developers have. This is 'interesting' game play. To be fair, an easy choice isn't always 'interesting'. So, I can relate to this logic of theirs. It also seems to be the start of revisiting the way things work now.

Borticus mentions in the "Is this working as intended" thread that the skill revamp caused some things to behave in a way that was not quite expected (power levels, traits, set bonuses). Indeed, they have had to buff and nerf things as a result of that. And buff/nerf set bonuses as a response to duty officers being put together in combinations they didn't intend (Heretic alludes to this in a couple of threads).

Quote:
2. This is a terrible nerf cause it will take away my shields. Anybody who has 3 science console slots will be unkillable. The MVAM escort is going to be a great ship now because of this. And I won't even be able to touch ships that have 3 of these. Before is was great. A ship could only have one, and that gave everybody a standard. Now there is no standard.
I don't know that anyone with them would be unkillable - but certainly harder to kill than they are now. That said, healing/debuff powers will be reduced for anyone who takes these shield consoles. So, it seems like a tradeoff. (Again, this seems like design intent.)

Regarding MVAM, that also seems like design intent. Otherwise, hit and run with Defiant refits would be 'the best'. Giving more choices is a good thing. But, sometimes not always the easiest to implement.

Again, I'm not advocating for the nerf. I am, however, pointing out that it seems almost like there is a larger vision to it (correcting/bug fixing/moving back to design intent).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 107
03-27-2012, 10:56 AM
Only issue is that it doesn't create a hard choice. Good science vessels will drop the console all together and buff their primary skills more. Everyone else will stack as many shield cap consoles as they can.

Unless you're a science vessel nothing else is really competing for that slot too much, besides maybe pay-2-win consoles.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 108
03-27-2012, 11:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dribyelruh View Post
Only issue is that it doesn't create a hard choice. Good science vessels will drop the console all together and buff their primary skills more. Everyone else will stack as many shield cap consoles as they can.

Unless you're a science vessel nothing else is really competing for that slot too much, besides maybe pay-2-win consoles.
This probably isn't going to be a popular opinion, but it really seems like the field gens should be even weaker. The weaker the shield % gain in them, the more competition they'll get from other consoles. Cruisers, for instance, should be having to choose between these and Emitter Array consoles. I don't imagine that's a hard choice right now, even at the 18%.

(Alternatively, like, all the "poor" science consoles could be a lot better. Shield Regen consoles, the godawful biofunction monitors, etc.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 109
03-27-2012, 11:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuntKathy
Right, this seems to be their intent. Making difficult choices is often a view many developers have. This is 'interesting' game play. To be fair, an easy choice isn't always 'interesting'. So, I can relate to this logic of theirs. It also seems to be the start of revisiting the way things work now.

Borticus mentions in the "Is this working as intended" thread that the skill revamp caused some things to behave in a way that was not quite expected (power levels, traits, set bonuses). Indeed, they have had to buff and nerf things as a result of that. And buff/nerf set bonuses as a response to duty officers being put together in combinations they didn't intend (Heretic alludes to this in a couple of threads).



I don't know that anyone with them would be unkillable - but certainly harder to kill than they are now. That said, healing/debuff powers will be reduced for anyone who takes these shield consoles. So, it seems like a tradeoff. (Again, this seems like design intent.)

Regarding MVAM, that also seems like design intent. Otherwise, hit and run with Defiant refits would be 'the best'. Giving more choices is a good thing. But, sometimes not always the easiest to implement.

Again, I'm not advocating for the nerf. I am, however, pointing out that it seems almost like there is a larger vision to it (correcting/bug fixing/moving back to design intent).
I understand your point, but man, you sound like a lawyer, lol. Their terms have nothing to do with having a fair, common sense relation with the people that pay and play a game. Having terms that allow you to do dirty tricks is just not common sense.

Now, please answer this: is it intended that a ship like mvam to have similar shields with a bortasq (I'm talking about command one, w 2 sci consoles)? For me doesn't sound neither normal or intended.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 110
03-27-2012, 11:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direphoenix View Post
Those aren't the loot containers that were changed. We're talking about the loot containers, not mystery boxes or cardassian lockboxes.

The new loot containers are definitely more detailed, but may be a bit easier to miss, especially the ground loot containers on busy maps. They're no longer the glowy orbs and shapes we used to know. Now they're more like actual metal boxes and cones, with a few lights decorating them:
Just to address this: we'll have a build going to Tribble today with some updates to the loot containers. It may help this issue. (If not, please let me know. )
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:06 AM.