Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
I'm sorry to say this, but they are. As someone who has been modding all kinds of games for years and has used all kinds of tools, I have to say that these are a big dissapointment.

They are very limited and feel more like "my babies first mission-maker tool" rather than an actual tool.

I experimented with every option, trying to find hidden menus and possibilities, but to no avail.
Something as basic as switching IFF or giving ships initial orders is not present. Setting up the strength of a opponent (trying to make a boss fight)? Non-existent.

Heck, Freespace 2's FRED editor makes this look like a school projects. And FS2 is a 13-year old game.
That is how you make a proper editor!
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index...FRED_small.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/karajor...heating-01.jpg
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
04-07-2012, 10:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soronarr View Post
I'm sorry to say this, but they are. As someone who has been modding all kinds of games for years and has used all kinds of tools, I have to say that these are a big dissapointment.

They are very limited and feel more like "my babies first mission-maker tool" rather than an actual tool.

I experimented with every option, trying to find hidden menus and possibilities, but to no avail.
Something as basic as switching IFF or giving ships initial orders is not present. Setting up the strength of a opponent (trying to make a boss fight)? Non-existent.

Heck, Freespace 2's FRED editor makes this look like a school projects. And FS2 is a 13-year old game.
That is how you make a proper editor!
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index...FRED_small.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/karajor...heating-01.jpg
To be fair, they tried to design a tool that is easy to use. It's not as easy or intuitive as they think it is. But, they were trying to make something that didn't have the harsh learning curve of other modding engines.

I've modded for a long time as well. Some of those tools are really hard to learn. They were sort of trying to create a tool that everyone can use.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
04-07-2012, 10:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkfat View Post
To be fair, they tried to design a tool that is easy to use. It's not as easy or intuitive as they think it is. But, they were trying to make something that didn't have the harsh learning curve of other modding engines.

I've modded for a long time as well. Some of those tools are really hard to learn. They were sort of trying to create a tool that everyone can use.
And they made a tool with which you can't do anything of any complexity without jumping trough a million hoops.. or not at all.
What an improvement!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
04-07-2012, 11:25 AM
there are a lot of editors that are so complex that most casual players would not have the first clue how to use them. you said yourself that you have spent years doing it on many games. you know what you are doing. most people dont. the foundry is designed for that type of player. its designed so anyone can pick it up and start making missions within a few hours.

there are also some factors they dont want you to play around with too much, as this is all happening on a live server. there are just some things they wont give you access to to make sure you dont start breaking things or exploiting loopholes. mods for offline games can have a little more freedom.

the tools could be easier to use at times and more in depth for those that want it, and there are improvements coming that will radically change the foundry.

but remember this is their first version of this tool. the foundry was not built for this game. it is being built for neverwinter. this was implemented as a test to iron out the problems for neverwinter, which they will then import back into sto at a later date. the current builds on nw will outstrip this version as they have learned what works and what does not.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
04-07-2012, 11:34 AM
Yea it's a let-down... But hey... after all it's just a data-mining tool for neverwinter
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
04-07-2012, 01:19 PM
The tools are very intuitive. However, keep in mind that they were designed with regular Cryptic missions in mind. Like:

Kill 0/5ships
Beam down
Interact 0/5 things
Kill 0/5 mobs
Beam up
Kill 0/5ships
"Congrats you saved the galaxy"

With the foundry, you can do a mission like this in less than 20 mins.
You can even shake up this mission design like this:

Kill 0/10 ships (Epic)
Beam down
Interact 0/25 things (So you feel important)
Kill 0/15 mobs (incl. 10 captain mobs for challenge)
Beam up
Kill 0/25ships (OH THE EPICNESS)
"Congrats you single handedly saved the galaxy from the Romulan-Klingon-Borg-Undine-Terran-Replicator-Q-Godlike hybrid creatures infused with Omega particle-Dark Matter-Higgs Boson-Midichlorian-Spinach that were out to conquer the Federation, kick your dog, eat all tribbles, reinstate the 5th dinasty and ask a ransom of ONE MILLION DOLLARS!"

And even that mission would take just 35 mins to make.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
04-07-2012, 01:32 PM
I was under the impression that it was intentionally hobbled for reasons unknown. I find it difficult to believe that Cryptic would have eliminated certain things, such as floors and cielings, if they were trying to make it easy to use. I am under the impression that they have purposely created a tool that is as difficult to use as possible. Maps provided are not clean, they contain crates and other objuects which must be hidden to make the maps usable, you cannot rotate on the Y-axis, you cannot even do a group copy and paste...

These things are NOT "features", these things are not "extras", they are necessities to all but the most creative and improvisional. If they were trying to make a tool that was easy to use, it would have a group copy/paste feature, or 3-D rotation which can be found in-game, or working with prims (Just as three of about 100 possible examples)

No, I cannot believe that they attempted to make the foundry "easy to use", I believe quite the opposite, and the evidence supports me, the Foundry is intentionally difficult to use.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
04-07-2012, 01:40 PM
Don't make a conspiracy theory out of this. It is just the good-old regular half-a**** cheap solution, you can see all around the game. Nothing more.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
04-07-2012, 02:13 PM
It's a Beta... but not for STO... STO is simply the test platform to see if the foundry works in the Champs (Hero?) engine, so that they can eventually port it to neverwinter. This is no big secret.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
04-07-2012, 02:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by woghd
I was under the impression that it was intentionally hobbled for reasons unknown. I find it difficult to believe that Cryptic would have eliminated certain things, such as floors and cielings, if they were trying to make it easy to use. I am under the impression that they have purposely created a tool that is as difficult to use as possible. Maps provided are not clean, they contain crates and other objuects which must be hidden to make the maps usable, you cannot rotate on the Y-axis, you cannot even do a group copy and paste...

These things are NOT "features", these things are not "extras", they are necessities to all but the most creative and improvisional. If they were trying to make a tool that was easy to use, it would have a group copy/paste feature, or 3-D rotation which can be found in-game, or working with prims (Just as three of about 100 possible examples)

No, I cannot believe that they attempted to make the foundry "easy to use", I believe quite the opposite, and the evidence supports me, the Foundry is intentionally difficult to use.
Sometimes I think this as well. How anyone could have thought that a 2d map editor (which is blurry) is user-friendly is beyond belief.

I can imagine a crazy and demented monkey at work behind the scenes, laughing like an evil genius:

"What? Someone built that! I'm going to change the values of x, y, and z! Let's see if they're as good with a calculator!"

"What are they using the /loc command for? Ah, now it's broken!"

"I'm going to have this invisible actually spawn 20 feet (converted to meters) far away from the spot they place it! HA HA! They won't be able to find it! It's invisible!"

"Let's put in all kinds of walls, but no floors or ceilings. HA HA!"

"They want icons? HA! There you go. Now try to build. HA!"


But, it's more likely that all of these issues are the result of poor design plans. I think Pendra is pretty right. Everything Cryptic does is about as unfinished as the Foundry is.
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