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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Seriously, there's not a single repel that works, or is worth a damn. Grav well is so weak you don't even need a counter, (in either a boff skill or specialization) there's reports that you can escape Grav wells without an engine equipped (I have not yet confirmed it). This skills repel is -so bad- that you don't even need Inertial Dampeners to get out of it, or a counter skill. Even with the full on Aftershock doff procs.

Photonic shockwaves repel is just heinously bad. The stun is borderline useless since you can still use Team abilities while stunned. The only thing it's good for is Damage, and you are about to take that away with the kinetic spec change. So this one is going into the worthless category as well.

Tractor Beam Repulsor, the repel is incredibly weak with even green spec into Inertial dampeners, to say nothing of using the counter skills, or if you go up to gold spec. You get thrown -maybe- two kilometers or so with only green spec. The only thing it's useful for now is spam clearing and damage... which is like PSW going to change making it worthless.

These three skills being garbage (or becoming garbage) only encourages yet more use of Charged Particle Burst, which has always been brutally overpowered, (but debatable necessary with all the resists, and cross healing in this game) Which CPB still has no counter to. Yet the Repels in the game have a myriad of counters for. Between one of them literally being non functional, one being borderline non functional, and easy resistance to the third there's literally no point in fielding anything but CPB. Which has no counter, and no resistance to it.

This also strongly discourages the use of the actual Counter Skills, which makes even more bridge officer powers useless. I ditched Attack Pattern Omega a good ways back simply because there was so very few powers it actually worked against... and the powers it worked against I could find much better counters for, and now that Inertial dampeners makes you all but immune to tractor beams, I'm strongly considering ditching my polarize hull as anything but a damage resist boost.

Aux to Dampeners? Why bother? Even a slow cruiser can get out of gravity well with ease without using it, green spec into Inertial Dampeners makes you virtually immune to TBR, PSW's stun is a joke since you can still throw your ETs around. It knocks your extends off you say? Meh. The Extend Shields doesn't matter since CPB already ripped the shields off your entire team anyway.

Polarize Hull? Meh, other than it provides a great hull damage resist? Not really functional.

I read a comment recently either by Borgitcus (Jman) or Heretic that Repels are Untrek like so they needed to be toned down. This is a Horrible Attitude, and demonstrates quite clearly why many pvpers, feel that you guys really have no clue of what you are doing. If this stuff is so untrek like, why did you bother putting sci ships in the game? What about Charged Particle Burst? I don't recall people running around charging exotic particles out of their ships to rip shields down at a moment's notice in ST either. Either remove all sci from the game and stop pretending to have any form of crowd control, or suck it up and balance it all. Repel, was Not Overpowered. Infact I can't really remember a time post season 2.5 that it has been. There are a myriad of counter skills in this game that most people were too stupid and too lazy to use. But they Worked. They were Viable, and their secondary perks made them Desirable skills to have (like Aux To Damps kinetic resistance, turn and speed increases to cite one example)

What you feel "is trek like" should have exactly 0 to do with how a skill is balanced in STO. That's horrible game design, letting your personal feelings interfere with objective facts. If it's so untrek like that you don't like it at all, then Remove It, and adjust all the old counter skills so that they are still viable otherwise.(which one of the counter skills is also useless. Looking right at you Attack Pattern Omega... damage modifier is Terrible, and it only works against.... TBR and PSW.... both of which suck now anyway) And while you are at it you might as well remove all of the special power consoles as well that sit in the Cstore. Cause hey they aren't trek like at all. Actually they are Less trek like than any boff power.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
03-30-2012, 06:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavairo
Repel, was Not Overpowered. Infact I can't really remember a time post season 2.5 that it has been.
Eh, GW was a bit overpowered. That being said, even if they put it back to what it was before, and even with the new aftershock doff, it's still going to be worthless if it's easy to get 50-75 resistance to it.

As soon as they fix the shield stripping resistance the same will be the case for CPB. It won't be worth taking. And then it won't be worth taking any science ship, ever. Worse yet, you can counter shield and power drains with a tier 2 skill. Meanwhile, the most useless skill in the entire game, countermeasures, is Tier 5.

The science skill tree in general is pretty borked. Decompilers is also too expensive for what it gives. If the resistance skill are so amazing that you can resist 75%, then the opportunity cost should be equally high. Make both the resistance skills tier 5, lower decompilers to tier 4, and lower the next to worthless countermeasure systems to tier 2. Even then 75% is too high though. Assuming both become tier 5 skills, they should resist no less than 50% and no more than 66%. Assuming they stay where they are, dampeners should resist no less than 40% and no more than 50%. Insulators, as a tier two skill, shouldn't resist any less than 33% and no more than 40%
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
03-30-2012, 06:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dribyelruh View Post
Eh, GW was a bit overpowered. That being said, even if they put it back to what it was before, and even with the new aftershock doff, it's still going to be worthless if it's easy to get 50-75 resistance to it.

As soon as they fix the shield stripping resistance the same will be the case for CPB. It won't be worth taking. And then it won't be worth taking any science ship, ever. Worse yet, you can counter shield and power drains with a tier 2 skill. Meanwhile, the most useless skill in the entire game, countermeasures, is Tier 5.
"overpowered"is relative in the case of GW. It had counter skills. Granted most people were too stupid to actually use them but they existed. Hard Counters no less. Aux to damp could be popped every 30 sec if you had just 1. Or you could chain it on a cruiser. (which also happened to make you pretty much Perma Immune to stuns, and also worked vs TBR)
Then there's the other counter in APO. When APO was still worth taking as a skill because it used to actually add real damage to your ship. Even if it still didn't work vs Chroniton. (Wtf)

The problem I agree also stems from these new resistance skills. 75 percent just from ranking out a skill is way too much. (since even gold spec would be enough to make the repel skill in question useless)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
03-30-2012, 06:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavairo
"overpowered"is relative in the case of GW. It had counter skills.
It wasn't overpowered when you used one. It was quite OP when it was stacked. The goal was to trap the entire, or at least a large part of the enemy team in stacked gravity wells. When you have 3-4 science captains you can subnuke anyone who tries to use a counter.

Basically, gravity well right now is useless. Before it was too strong. With the aftershock doff it would be lubriciously overpowered. With it being so easy to get up to 50%+ resistance though, it's going to be useless no matter what.

What Cryptic needs to do is make the resistance skills more reasonable, and then buff gravity well but make it moderately less strong than it was before.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
03-30-2012, 06:33 AM
They could also consider removing Doffs from pvp entirely which would go a long way to fixing some other issues...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
03-30-2012, 06:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavairo
They could also consider removing Doffs from pvp entirely which would go a long way to fixing some other issues...
Or at least remove lame sauce grind stuff from PvP, like the bonuses than doff missions give you, not to mention team batteries.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
03-30-2012, 06:37 AM
I was just starting to enjoy science.

Bored with engineers, at least in PUG play.

Meh I have two more tacs to get up to end game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
03-30-2012, 07:26 AM
I ranted about this a few nights ago. If it weren't for CPB3, there would be no reason to put my sci captains in sci ships right now. It's so stupid, it's almost hilarious... almost.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
03-30-2012, 09:01 AM
I did some TBR testing with a fleetmate the other night and was quite shocked at the repel results, with 9 points in Gravitons, 2x +26 graviton consoles and the extra from the borg console for a total of +178 to Gravitons in all I could hardly budge him, with him specced 3 points into dampners, and that was without him using any proactive skills to counter, with myself 3 points into dampners he found the same results against me, We were lucky to get 1km of push, and to get any more, to say, 2km we had to be pushing into the direction of travel, if we were pushing against the direction of travel then we were lucky to even slow each other down a bit.

Compare that to the 4-6km of push you get against someone without any skill points put into dampners, regardless of direction of travel and it seems the repel resist gain from Inertial Dampners has been tweaked a bit too much IMO. As you say it makes the proactive dampner skills utterly redundant.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
03-30-2012, 09:18 AM
I remember when I could knock the CE a good 7k. 1k is weak sauce bad karma.
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