Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
03-31-2012, 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanftd View Post
Hi just wondering , can federations players get a battle cloak on the defiant of galaxy x? Just seen some Klingon players usin them in pvp wouldn't mid one myself, although I am pretty sure j know what the answer is going to be, but hey I might be wrong .
Battle cloaks are for Birds-of-Prey only, the ships with the lowest hull in the game. They wouldn't work on any other ship, and only work on the BoP because of their minuscule hull. Letting anything with more hull than a BoP battle cloak would amount to a "Get Out of Jail Free" card. With the BoP you cloak and your shields drop...because of your hull levels you are always in danger of going boooom when you do that. A Galaxy-X, or even a Defiant-R? Not so much. With the ships you suggest if things look like they're going badly you can always just polarize your hull plating then cloak with minimal (or in the case of the Gal-X) any real chance of dying.

That would be a... very bad thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catliketyping
What? There's shockingly few Klingon ships, whereas Starfleet has multiple free options at T5 & more c-store options for every class in every tier.
You should actually go and do the math. And not on ship skins, but on actual ships. You're pretty wrong. While there is some imbalance, it's very, very, very slight (except when it comes to shuttle craft or tiers lower than Commander, which for the KDF don't currently exist).

Quote:
Originally Posted by catliketyping
For KDF, you sometimes have to buy outfits/p2w consoles in the c-store to actually be able to change the appearance of your ship.
Ships post launch don't have the same customization options.

*points to Gal-X*
*points to Odyssey*
*points to D'kyr*
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
03-31-2012, 04:27 PM
Meh, I'd of made all ships that could cloak have battle cloak. The bigger the ship, the longer it would take to fully cloak though.

The Defiant cloak is Romulan tech, which is inferior to the Klingon cloak tech per Memory Alpha. So even if it was granted a Battle Cloak, it should take a long time to activate the effect.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
03-31-2012, 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHappyJoyJoy View Post
You should actually go and do the math. And not on ship skins, but on actual ships. You're pretty wrong. While there is some imbalance, it's very, very, very slight (except when it comes to shuttle craft or tiers lower than Commander, which for the KDF don't currently exist).
Just to be clear on this:
Commander:

UFP
Advanced Heavy Cruiser (CStore)
Heavy Cruiser
Heavy Escort
Heavy Escort Refit (CStore)
Advanced Research Vessel
Research Science Vessel (CStore)
Free:3
Store:3
Total:6

KDF
Norgh Bird-of-Prey
Norgh Bird-of-Prey Refit (CStore)
Qorgh Raptor
Qorgh Raptor Refit (CStore)
K't'inga Battle Cruiser
K't'inga Battle Cruiser Refit (CStore)
Phalanx Science Vessel (CStore)
Vandal Destroyer (CStore)
Dacoit Flight-Deck Cruiser (CStore)
Free:3
Store:6
Total:9
KDF has the same number of free ships at Commander, and twice the number of Store options.
Captain:

UFP
Exploration Cruiser
Exploration Cruiser Refit (CStore)
Tactical Escort
Tactical Escort Refit (CStore)
Long Range Science Vessel
Long Range Science Vessel Refit (CStore)
Free:3
Store:3
Total:9

KDF
Ki'tang Bird-of-Prey
Ki'tang Bird-of-Prey Refit (CStore)
Pach Raptor
Pach Raptor Refit (CStore)
Vor'cha Battle Cruiser
Vor'cha Battle Cruiser Refit (CStore)
Draguas Support Vessel (CStore)
Scourge Destroyer (CStore)
Corsair Flight-Deck Cruiser (CStore)
Free:3
Store:6
Total:9
Again, the KDF has the same number of free ships at Captain, and twice the number of Store options.
Rear Admiral and Brigadier/Major General:

UFP
Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit (CStore)
Assault Cruiser
Star Cruiser
Advanced Escort
Fleet Escort
Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit (CStore)
Deep Space Science Vessel
Reconnaissance Science Vessel
D'Kyr Science Vessel (CStore)
Free:6
Store:3
Total:9

KDF
Hegh'ta Heavy Bird-of-Prey
Qin Heavy Raptor
Negh'Var Heavy Battle Cruiser
Vor'cha Battle Cruiser Retrofit
Vo'quv Carrier
Free: 5
Store:0
Total:5
Here the KDF has one fewer free option, and three fewer store options. This right here is where we find our KDF discrepancy, of course this is after two tiers of the UFP lagging.
Vice Admiral and Lieutenant General:

UFP
Exploration Cruiser Retrofit (Token/CStore)
Federation Dreadnought Cruiser (CStore)
Tactical Escort Retrofit (Token/CStore)
Long Range Science Vessel Retrofit (Token/CStore)
Multi-Vector Advanced Escort (CStore)
Odyssey Operations Cruiser (CStore)
Odyssey Science Cruiser (CStore)
Odyssey Tactical Cruiser (CStore)
Free:3 (to long time subscribers)
Store:8

KDF
B'rel Bird-of-Prey Retrofit (Token/CStore)
Varanus Fleet Support Vessel (Token/CStore)
Guramba Siege Destroyer (CStore)
Marauder Patrol Cruiser (Token/CStore)
Kar'Fi Battle Carrier (Token/CStore)
Bortas Tactical Cruiser (CStore)
Bortas Science Cruiser (CStore)
Bortas Operations Cruiser (CStore)
Free:4 (to long time subscribers)
Store:8
Here we have the same number of CStore ships, with KDF veterans being able to access one more for free via tokens.
Totals:

UFP
Free:12
Free to Veterans:15
Store:17
Total:29

KDF
Free:11
Free to Veterans:15
Store:20
Total:31
In total the KDF has one less standard free ship, but an equal amount for veterans thanks to one extra option at Lieutenant General, and they have three more ships total to buy.
T5 Totals Alone:

UFP
Free:6
Free to Veterans:9
Store:11
Total:17

KDF
Free:5
Free to Veterans:9
Store:8
13
One fewer standard free ship, but again an equal amount for veterans thanks to that extra Lieutenant General option. They actually fall only three behind in the amount available for purchase from the CStore here.

So this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by catliketyping
What? There's shockingly few Klingon ships, whereas Starfleet has multiple free options at T5 & more c-store options for every class in every tier.
... is in fact wrong on a few levels. The KDF in fact has more raw ships at the tiers where they're present. They're just (sadly) front loaded, with more ships in the earlier tiers. Even at the later tiers free options are quite comparable, and for veterans nearly identical (swap one standard free one for one VA/LG token ship). Really, what they miss out on are three RA/BG CStore ships.

Of course, one could argue that while the KDF has slightly fewer raw ships at T5, they also have greater base variety with Science Ships (Support Vessels), Cruisers (Battle Cruisers) and Escorts (Raptors) much like the Federation, but in addition to that they also have Carriers and Raiders which are entirely absent on the other side of the fence. Thus they've sacrificed numbers for variety.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
03-31-2012, 05:13 PM
KDF has more ships because we have two types that the Federation doesn't have. BoP and Carriers.

Both factions have a free version and a pay version of the ship type per tier except for the carrier. All carriers, save one, are cstore based.

KDF Science ships are very slow and suck for the most part. Most Science officers fly a Carrier because of it.

KDF may have two more classes of ships, but none of them are as balanced as the Fed ships. KDF ships focus in one area only, thus leaving weakness in the other two slots. One of the reasons why so many KDF players are up in arms over the FG nerf, because now they are even weaker than before.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
03-31-2012, 05:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHappyJoyJoy View Post
You should actually go and do the math. And not on ship skins, but on actual ships. You're pretty wrong. While there is some imbalance, it's very, very, very slight (except when it comes to shuttle craft or tiers lower than Commander, which for the KDF don't currently exist).
I also specifically said Klingon ships, not KDF. I'll just quote myself here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by catliketyping
I think a lot of KDF players would LOVE to see more actual Klingon designs in the shipyard.
Come on over to the KDF side & see how many options we have, then. The variety in ship types means you don't have as many actual options within the actual tier, aside from the fact that the non-Klingon hulls limits the appeal to a lot of players. I have 2 BoPs to play with. How many hero cruisers do you have on the Starfleet side? How many Escorts?

How many people would rather have a Sol/Starfleet carrier rather than a Caitian one? Same thing goes with the Gorn science vessel, the Nausicaan escort-type ship, and the Kar'fi carrier. Is it a variety, or a lack of Klingon hulls?

Run the numbers, sure. I think a lot of Starfleet opinion about the KDF faction comes from numbers rather than play, however.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
03-31-2012, 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catliketyping
I also specifically said Klingon ships, not KDF. I'll just quote myself here...
It's the same faction. They are options. You can't discount them just because you want to...

Quote:
Originally Posted by catliketyping
Come on over to the KDF side & see how many options we have, then.
I have three Lieutenant Generals. I hit Brigadier General with one before Bringing Down the House even existed. I've been playing KDF since beta.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catliketyping
The variety in ship types means you don't have as many actual options within the actual tier...
Which isn't true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catliketyping
...aside from the fact that the non-Klingon hulls limits the appeal to a lot of players.
And which doesn't matter. I don't like the look of the Defiant, or the Excelsior, or the Star Cruisers, or the Fleet Escorts, or the Nebula, or the D'Kyr among others... doesn't mean they don't count as ship choices. You not liking the aesthetics doesn't make the ships less valid. It's not a viable counterargument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catliketyping
I have 2 BoPs to play with. How many hero cruisers do you have on the Starfleet side? How many Escorts?
The BoP is founded upon versatility so of course there aren't many. How many different BOff setups do expect from a ship filled with universal BOff slots, and how many console layouts do expect from a ship designed to provide versatility (and thus almost requires a 3/3/3 layout)? They can't just reverse an Ensign Slot and a Console like they did with every standard Fed Ship (Star/Assault, Fleet/Advanced, DS/Recon) because if you swap a Sci Console for a Tactical Console in a 3/3/3 layout you still have a 3/3/3 layout, and if you swap a Universal BOff Slot for a Universal BOff Slot on a ship filled entirely with Universal BOff Slots then you still have a ship filled with Universal BOff Slots.

Beyond that there is more choice in raw ship types (five versus three) so yeah, again, saying there aren't options isn't true.

You're spinning. And badly.

You're arguing that there isn't choice (individual options within type) because... there's more choice (more types to choose from). You're complaining that you don't have as many flavours of vanilla as the UFP does while you have a few flavours of vanilla and chocolate, and butterscotch which the UFP doesn't even get to touch.

You may not like the choices available but that's irrelevant. Lots of people don't like the Nebula, or the Odyssey and it's equally irrelevant. What matters, ultimately, is raw nuts and bolts options and not how you personally feel about them. What should matter is the viability of those options, and there's issues with viability of various ships on both sides that need to be addressed and is another matter altogether.

You've lost perspective. You need to be more objective.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
03-31-2012, 07:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron
Yes I am.

Have you actually checked the differences of ships? the strongest hull on a Raider is 24,000 (Hegh'ta), only Escorts under Captain rank have weaker hulls that it.

What Raiders pay for their Battlecloaks is a heavy price, they get less hull, less weapons and less BO stations (even if they do get all Universals for that).

You want a Battlecloak at what cost? You want to lose 6,000 hull or more? It would not come free because it comes not come free for Raiders either ... you would not be able to go cloaked in Ker'rat on a cruiser as not even Klingon Battleruisers get Battlecloak and neither do Raptors.
No I have not checked, and I don't care to. If I fancy a battle cloak then thats what I fancy regardless of hull capacity or weapons ect, if it Dosnt work then it dosnt work. Plus I'm not saying fed ships should get them I'm just asking if it was possible to.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
03-31-2012, 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanftd View Post
No I have not checked, and I don't care to. If I fancy a battle cloak then thats what I fancy regardless of hull capacity or weapons ect, if it Dosnt work then it dosnt work. Plus I'm not saying fed ships should get them I'm just asking if it was possible to.
On any ship with anything but meagre hull it wouldn't be possible... well it would be possible, they could throw it on a ship, but it would be spectacularly broken on any ship that isn't as fragile as a BoP. Even the Defiant-R and especially the Gal-X (or really any Cruiser or even Battle Cruiser).

You need to have tiny amounts to hull to make cloaking in battle a potentially dicey option; You cloak and maybe you get away clean, or maybe you blow up before you manage it. With more hull it's not dicey anymore. You would pretty much always get away clean (unless you were being massively focus-fired, in which case you should be dead).
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