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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 111
04-26-2012, 06:24 PM
Great thread! Very informative.
I'm going to try the parser next time I go on.

I also run a defiant R, and currently use phaser weapons. I actually mix canons and beams tho.

I use a quad cannon, DHC, Dual beam, and a Quantum up front, with beam, turret and either a second beam or turret in the trunk. Sometimes I play with the breen Transpahsic cluster torp.

Tac consoles: 4X phaser relays.

The reason for this particular weapons lay out is because I like to stay on the move. Always have engines to the max but aux power set to weapons.

Since the defiant can't take too much punishment, I feel it's better to keep moving from target to target, hit hard once with everything up front, then leave a going away present behind (cluster torp)

I may not be maxing my DPS, but I sure as hell am having fun!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 112
04-29-2012, 08:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by amlross
Great thread! Very informative.
I'm going to try the parser next time I go on.

I also run a defiant R, and currently use phaser weapons. I actually mix canons and beams tho.

I use a quad cannon, DHC, Dual beam, and a Quantum up front, with beam, turret and either a second beam or turret in the trunk. Sometimes I play with the breen Transpahsic cluster torp.

Tac consoles: 4X phaser relays.

The reason for this particular weapons lay out is because I like to stay on the move. Always have engines to the max but aux power set to weapons.

Since the defiant can't take too much punishment, I feel it's better to keep moving from target to target, hit hard once with everything up front, then leave a going away present behind (cluster torp)

I may not be maxing my DPS, but I sure as hell am having fun!
Dont worry, hes not maximizing his DPS either. All a FAW-scort really excels at is putting AP B 3/2 on everything in a 10 km radius and keeping it there as long as possible.

And, if I remember correctly, hes using two beta 1s anyway ...

That, and he types like some sort of motivational/self-help conference speaker. Lots of flash, not much substance.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 113
04-29-2012, 07:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by amlross
Great thread! Very informative.
I'm going to try the parser next time I go on.

I also run a defiant R, and currently use phaser weapons. I actually mix canons and beams tho.

I use a quad cannon, DHC, Dual beam, and a Quantum up front, with beam, turret and either a second beam or turret in the trunk. Sometimes I play with the breen Transpahsic cluster torp.

Tac consoles: 4X phaser relays.

The reason for this particular weapons lay out is because I like to stay on the move. Always have engines to the max but aux power set to weapons.

Since the defiant can't take too much punishment, I feel it's better to keep moving from target to target, hit hard once with everything up front, then leave a going away present behind (cluster torp)

I may not be maxing my DPS, but I sure as hell am having fun!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I tried the Breen cluster torp in Stf's, it really doesn't help. You would think since it hits so hard that it would, but it takes forever to fire it again, and you can't use spread with it.

I also ran with a Dual beam in front for Overload until I read this thread. I do so much more dps now with 2 DHC, Quad, Quantum up front, and 3 turrets in the back.

You really don't need a going away present in the back b/c most of the small stuff is dead b4 you pass, it might help against cubes but most of your enemies are probes, spheres, and small Klingon stuff.

All the tips in this thread really helped me round out my build, I'm glad I stumbled across it...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 114
05-01-2012, 11:21 PM
Very interesting post. I would recommend that you state that this is a PvE build; if anyone goes into PvP with it, that 900 BILLION ZILLION dps will drop to near 0, as you will be rather quickly destroyed (once your RSP drops or is SNBed) and laughed at for having a beam boat escort (my friend tried it, it doesn't work. No burst). However, in PvE, this build would work.

Just a few points:

Flow Capacitors: Put some points in here. You gain quite a few more points of shield-stripping per shot for minimal cost, since you run the Omega set.
Efficiency: 9 points is pointless; 6 would be better. you gain maybe 1-2 points of power when the skill points should go into Power Insulators (against TachBeam) and Shield Systems
Hull Repair: You have 1 weak hull heal, and passive hull heal isn't very strong. Take out 3 points from that and put them into Shield Emitters. You have a stronger shield heal (TSS II) and it slightly increases your RSP

You currently have no defense against Tractor Beams. I assume you get within 5 km to maximize damage, yet if a Sphere or Cube grabs you with a Tractor, you are dead. Perhaps an Attack Pattern Omega, or at least points in Inertial Dampers
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 115
05-01-2012, 11:44 PM
Silly Ikrit, you clearly didn't read the original post thoroughly enough:
Quote:
Originally Posted by OP
Even though I built specifically in PVE I almost ALWAYS win in PVP solos and pretty much always win in PVP team instances.
Clearly we are underestimating the power of his FaW-escort in pvp... NOT. There's a reason that FaW-escorts are not considered pvp viable; they put out raw suppression damage, but don't have the burst to actually kill anything. Doing a little bit of damage to the entire enemy team won't get you anywhere. There's a reason that the game's top pvp escort pilots run all-cannon builds. When you can get more kills / DPS in a pvp match than folks like Aytanhi or MT, I'll be willing to listen to your claims of having a good pvp escort build.

Yes, I realize that I'm making some pretty harsh statements about the efficacy of your build. However, I'm more than willing to back up these statements in either a 1v1 duel or a PvP team match if you can get a team together; maybe with two or other escorts using your build. I'm sure that my pvp fleet would be happy to take on such a team and witness the full firepower of such an escort build.

PS: You really need to stop leaning on the CAPS LOCK key in your original post, it makes my eyes sore.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 116
05-02-2012, 12:01 AM
Quote:
Even though I built specifically in PVE I almost ALWAYS win in PVP solos and pretty much always win in PVP team instances.
Aha, I missed this. FaW is OP in 1v1s. You fire 1 extra beam from each weapon, plus it deals more damage. FaW is also OP in 2v2s, as you hit both targets with 1 extra beam from each weapon. However, in a team setting, that damage is split nearly evenly among 5 targets. It isn't enough killing power to run 5 ships with suppression, and running 2 escorts doesn't always work out so well (too squishy).

Oh, and this guy above me is the friend I mentioned who tried the FaW boat/
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 117
05-02-2012, 04:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ikrit122 View Post
and laughed at for having a beam boat escort (my friend tried it, it doesn't work. No burst). However, in PvE, this build would work.
I used to use Dual Beam Bank with a small front arc on my cruiser with FaW. Surely that setup on an Escort counts as a beam boat with burst damage as due to the weapon arc all the FaW gets focused on 1 target most of the time. I also fail to see how Beam overlord is not classed as burst damage.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 118
05-02-2012, 05:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
I used to use Dual Beam Bank with a small front arc on my cruiser with FaW. Surely that setup on an Escort counts as a beam boat with burst damage as due to the weapon arc all the FaW gets focused on 1 target most of the time. I also fail to see how Beam overlord is not classed as burst damage.
Beam Overload is most definitely burst damage. However, you only require 1 beam for that. A "beam boat" uses all beams (7 in this case). The best damage for this would be 4 Beam Arrays fore and 3 aft, with broadsiding as you primary tactic so you can hit your opponent with all 7 beams at once. This strategy doesn't provide much burst damage (it provides plenty of damage for sure, just not burst). Using 4 DBBs and 3 Beam Arrays, you actually deal less damage against a given target, as you are only using 4 beams against the target, which isn't nearly as much damage as you can get with 4 DHCs and 3 Turrets, for example. It doesn't uses the strengths of the escort effectively. Therefore, a 3 DHC, 3 Turret, 1 DBB setup with Beam Overload would be a better setup if you want to use beams, but currently the favorite setup in PvP is 4 DHCs and 3 Turrets.

Cruisers are better suited for a sustained dps role, due to poor turning, meaning they can't batter 1 enemy as well, so why not have them batter all enemies, and high survivability, which means they can stay in a fight long enough to actually deal sustained dps. They also have the resources to manage the power loss of firing all beams at once (use EPtW) without losing survivability. The OP's build uses EPtW, but that ensign slot would be better used in PvP for EPtS, meaning he has lower weapon power for his beams, lowering his overall dps.

And the only cruisers I would recommend any DBBs on would be the Excelsior, the Negh'var, and the Vor'cha, but their use is limited. You want to be able to hit a target with as many weapons at once as you can, and only aft Turrets and all beam arrays let you do that, and 4 DBBs and 4 Turrets with FaW isn't maximizing damage.

Again, PvE is a different beast. But generally a PvP build works in PvE (minus sci ships at the moment, but the Grav Well buff on Tribble atm may change that). It may not be max dps, but it will definitely carry a pug in Infected Elite. I've never had an issue. Might take a bit of work, but it can be done.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 119
05-02-2012, 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ikrit122 View Post
"Using 4 DBBs and 3 Beam Arrays, you actually deal less damage against a given target, as you are only using 4 beams against the target, which isn't nearly as much damage as you can get with 4 DHCs and 3 Turrets, for example. It doesn't uses the strengths of the escort effectively”
I see your point about beam overlord but I am still not as convinced about beams. Yes turrets are better but beams do not seem that far behind. We are only talking 100dps ish difference. 4 beams with FaW out damage 4 DHC’s (*). Looking at the math 4 beams with 3 turrets is a pretty good match against 4 DHCs and 3 turrets. Saying that I prefer x2 triobalt mines and x1 other mine in the rears which keeps the front energy very high but why not mix beams and turrets at least in the front/rear slots. I see why you do not mix front slots.

(* Assuming due to the arc of 90 you get all beams on same target)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 120
05-02-2012, 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
I see your point about beam overlord but I am still not as convinced about beams. Yes turrets are better but beams do not seem that far behind. We are only talking 100dps ish difference. 4 beams with FaW out damage 4 DHC’s (*). Looking at the math 4 beams with 3 turrets is a pretty good match against 4 DHCs and 3 turrets. Saying that I prefer x2 triobalt mines and x1 other mine in the rears which keeps the front energy very high but why not mix beams and turrets at least in the front/rear slots. I see why you do not mix front slots.

(* Assuming due to the arc of 90 you get all beams on same target)
Talking pure dps is great, but you have to consider skills as well. The amount of damage dealt by DHCs with Cannon Rapid Fire III is greater against 1 target than 4 DBBs with FaW III. If you take into account any Turrets in the rear, you gain extra damage against that target that is increased by the same skill used with your DHCs. All of this assumes you only have 1-2 targets in your firing arc with FaW. If you get 3 (very possible in PvP), then your damage against your target decreases by about 1/3. Any mines or pets screw this number up even more, making a FaW escort ineffective against Klingons and soon Feds, with the Caitian carrier. 90 degrees is a wide arc; you can catch quite a bit in it.

Another thing to consider about FaW is the actual uptime of the skill. The duration is 10 seconds, and the cooldown is 20 seconds, but the shared cooldown (running a second FaW) is 20 seconds. This means you run FaW every 20 seconds for 10 seconds: 50% uptime. In the downtime, your DBBs don't deal very much damage, numbers much lower than that of DHCs. Now with CRF, you have the same 10 second duration, but it is only 5 seconds to your second CRF. You have 66% uptime, with superior damage in the downtime.

As for the rear slots, I actual run a single beam array aft with 2 turrets, because it keeps my weapon power high enough while increasing my damage in the side and aft arcs. But there's a point where trying to minimize power drain starts to lower your dps, and I think 6 weapons running at the same time is the cutoff without extra help (EPtW, for example). I've also been trying out 3 DHCs and 1 DBB in front, but I have mixed feelings about this. The DBB is just there to lower the power drain while providing a decent amount of forward damage, but I don't think it contributes too much. Perhaps a DC with 3 DHCs...
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