Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 51
04-02-2012, 03:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
The Borg use a lot of redundant systems. It is a safe bet that the Queen would be recreated shortly after bring destroyed. We know the pathogen was not absolute or a sphere wouldn't have had a shot on taking out Voyager.
Because you said so ...

And by Hard Canon there is nothing after Voyager, in Soft Canon you have the novel "Lost Souls" were they ended the Borg once and for all.

Quote:
The Borg's need to assimilate is to some extent an assumption. They can and do adapt to new tactics in the field, or else shifting frequencies would always work. It is unreasonable to assume that none of the races they have assimilated are strong on creativity.
The Borg do not create, they assimilate ... making something new is not something they are capable of, this is pretty much their weak spot as a race.

This is also why Wolf 359 was so devastating, it was not as such as a Borg Cube but Jean-Luc Picard knowledge of the Federation ships, their captains and its defenses.

Quote:
Having ships capable of defeating Borg ships does not equate to victory, either.
Its a different situations were they started at, it also implies eventually they will reach a point were technology advantage gap will be nill and then the Federation will surpass the Borg.

Its evolution, the Borg are UTTER UNABLE TO EVOLVE ON THEIR OWN.

Quote:
The Federation have ships capable of defeating Dominion ships, but still had to resort to bio warfare against the Founders via Section 31 in order to win that war.
Dont bring up the Dominion into this ... besides you want to bring up how the Federation adapted to Phased polaron beams?

Quote:
If the Borg are in the Alpha quadrant, it means they have already exploited their way here, and assimilated pretty much everything on the way. That is rather a lot of resources to overcome.
Right because the Transwarp network does not exist.

Please ...

The is the problem I have with the Borg fans, they want to keep the Wolf 359 status quo despite that ship had long sailed and all canon evidence points to the Borg not being as much as a threat as they once were.

You want stasis, I do not want stasis and in fact I welcome a Borg downgarde because its a measure of power, what 30 years ago was a impossible to defeat foe can now be fought at about the same level.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 52
04-02-2012, 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron
Because you said so ...

And by Hard Canon there is nothing after Voyager, in Soft Canon you have the novel "Lost Souls" were they ended the Borg once and for all.
Soft canon doesn't count and you know it. Hard canon is that the Queen was destroyed in First Contact too, but it didn't slow the Borg down (why would they risk her being that far forward if there was significant risk, especially since the battle was a distraction to send the time ship back?). Hugh didn't slow them down either.

Quote:
The Borg do not create, they assimilate ... making something new is not something they are capable of, this is pretty much their weak spot as a race.

This is also why Wolf 359 was so devastating, it was not as such as a Borg Cube but Jean-Luc Picard knowledge of the Federation ships, their captains and its defenses.
Fact or supposition? I don't recall Picard or Seven saying categorically that they do not develop new tech.

Quote:
Its a different situations were they started at, it also implies eventually they will reach a point were technology advantage gap will be nill and then the Federation will surpass the Borg.
Which is only relevant if there is no upper limit to development, and if the Borg don't win on superior resources regardless of tech differences. A King Tiger was a far superior tank in WWII but when facing an endless stream of T-34's, it was doomed. When it ran out of gas even if facing absolutely nothing, it was doomed.

Quote:
Its evolution, the Borg are UTTER UNABLE TO EVOLVE ON THEIR OWN.
Again, cite proof please, not merely speculation.

Quote:
Dont bring up the Dominion into this ... besides you want to bring up how the Federation adapted to Phased polaron beams?
I'll bring up anything that supports my case, thank you very much. The war wasn't won by way of phased polaron anything. It was won by bio warfare and by 'Sisko intervention' (the 'wormhole aliens cutting off wormhole traffic).

Quote:
Right because the Transwarp network does not exist.

Please ...
So the Borg, who completely ignore someone beaming on to their ship until they become a nuisance skip over vast light years of civilizations and resources just to hit the Federation a little earlier? Want to try that again?

Quote:
The is the problem I have with the Borg fans, they want to keep the Wolf 359 status quo despite that ship had long sailed and all canon evidence points to the Borg not being as much as a threat as they once were.

You want stasis, I do not want stasis and in fact I welcome a Borg downgarde because its a measure of power, what 30 years ago was a impossible to defeat foe can now be fought at about the same level.
A Borg fleet over Earth defines them as a threat. The Federation has only survived because The Borg are nerfed into idiots. They could have simply sent another fleet after First Contact, or multiple fleets, this time without the vulnerability that cost them the battle. They could have launched multiple timeships to increase the odds of one succeeding. It isn't like time travel is that difficult in Star Trek....

The writers had a chance to rationalize the Borg and make them a more reasonable foe by way of Hugh but decided not to let that work.

They are set up as being sufficiently tough that the only way they could be beaten short term is by hand-waver-y.....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 53
04-02-2012, 04:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron
You might want to watch Voyager finale.

Battle for Sector 001 was in 2373, Battle of Wolf 359 was just 6 years before ... Voyager Finale was in 78, the line you are quoting was said 5 years before Voyager destroyed the Unicomplex.

The problem is the Borg fans just want the Wolf 359 status quo to maintain, that is impossible as Voyager pretty much ends the Borg with the finale, not to mention Species 8472 proved not only being capable of resisting their assimilation but counter-attacking in such a way the Borg were of the verge of defeat.

Also it would be maintained, the Borg "adapt" but dont seem to be capable of evolving, if the Federation is allowed the time they will be able to deal with the Borg, we can see that in the 6 years from Wolf 359 to Sector 001 Battle the Federation developed ships capable of defeating a Borg Cube ... the Borg need to assimilate to evolve, the Federation does not.
The problem is, the Borg Queen was able to identify the Pathogen moments after it began affecting her, to me, that indicates an ability to identify and analyze a problem, without necessarily assimilating it.

Take that, and the fact that she assimilated future Janeway (albeit only partially) and the SC-4 shuttle, even taking into account that they had only begin,the fact that any information gained would have been disseminated throughout the parts of the collective she could still contact.. And it's likely that control was reasserted and that particular window of weakness closed.

Also, Kimmera is very much correct, The Borg are known for their redundant backup systems, Commander Shelby once estimated a Cube could stay operative even if more than 78% of it were destroyed. It's pure naivete to think they would go backwards in their effectiveness, and wouldn't have multiple Queens in Stasis or close-to operative condition at all times at locations far and away from the central Unicomplex.

What Janeway accomplished did deal the Borg a crippling blow, but it wasn't the Pathogen, it was the destruction of the Transwarp Hub. Something the Borg likely began rebuilding immediately after, and it's been more than 30 years since that occurred. It's a safe assumption the Borg have rebuilt the sixth of their Transwarp Network Janeway destroyed, and have probably even used the opportunity to expand it.

The Borg have vastly superior technological resources than the Federation or the Klingon Empire, they have extremely large material resources as well, since environmentalism isn't on their list of concerns, they are even powerful enough that even Q warns Q not to provoke them!

They should not be so easily defeated, and their machinations should be sweeping in scope, either subtle or brute.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 54
04-02-2012, 04:04 PM
at the pass Cryptic is going, I would like to to be just one of those quite enemies that you dont hear from often.

But what I would really like is for the Borg to actually BE scary like their supposed to be. I think their used too often in this game and appear too weak.
in my opinion, the STFs should be fleet actions. I dont want to be able to take on a cube single handedly, or a Tac Cube with only 5 starships.

So, yes if Cryptic wants to keep them like they are, then throw them off to the side, but I would like to see them be a force to be feared.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 55
04-02-2012, 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan118 View Post
So, yes if Cryptic wants to keep them like they are, then throw them off to the side, but I would like to see them be a force to be feared.
The only thing you have to fear from the Borg is grinding for a Mk XII space or ground set...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 56
04-02-2012, 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelimion
Far as I see, the Borg are the main antagonists for this season and possibly the next, then we move on to the guys pulling everyone's strings XD
I believe season 6 will bring the Tholians in a FE and the Iconians will be taking a more prominent antagonist role over the Borg.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 57
04-02-2012, 06:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
The problem is, the Borg Queen was able to identify the Pathogen moments after it began affecting her, to me, that indicates an ability to identify and analyze a problem, without necessarily assimilating it.
The Queen is unique.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 58
04-02-2012, 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan118 View Post
at the pass Cryptic is going, I would like to to be just one of those quite enemies that you dont hear from often.

But what I would really like is for the Borg to actually BE scary like their supposed to be. I think their used too often in this game and appear too weak.
in my opinion, the STFs should be fleet actions. I dont want to be able to take on a cube single handedly, or a Tac Cube with only 5 starships.

So, yes if Cryptic wants to keep them like they are, then throw them off to the side, but I would like to see them be a force to be feared.
Just a suggestion but how would you feel is they revamped FAs and STFs (again) so that Fleet Actions were the space parts and the ground parts were STFs?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 59
04-02-2012, 06:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
Just a suggestion but how would you feel is they revamped FAs and STFs (again) so that Fleet Actions were the space parts and the ground parts were STFs?
i dont want to compete againts 20 people for the stupid loot.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 60
04-02-2012, 06:41 PM
Unfortunately Cryptic ran them into the ground and have never come close to doing them any kind of justice. Some folks are dissatisfied with Klink content, I'm unhappy about the way PvP has been treated to this point but of all my complaints the horrible depiction of the Borg from Cryptic (and Voyager... /shudder) is by far the worst.

The Borg could and absolutely should have been a real threat. So many other generic trash races could have been used as cannon fodder. I'd really like to know who decided to run them into the ground and just... shake them... angrily, lol.

All that being said, at this point I'd rather they left the Borg alone. Phase them out for a year or so and work on something else. Then maybe they can revamp the Borg in such a way that does them some justice.
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