Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
04-03-2012, 09:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
But that's just it. There's no use for that niche. If you want a cruiser, fly a cruiser. If you want a science ship, fly a science ship. The hybrid role that the Nebula is beastly at ... has no effective niche in this game.
So there's no use for a AoE CC based Science ship? Or a shield healing support ship? It does things differently to the other Science ships but it's still Science and in certain combinations is much more powerful than the pure Science ship; EWP owns GW in every way as a CC ability just as a Nebula running with ES2 and TSS3 is superior to a Cruiser at shield healing. It's different and it's role's slightly different but it's not so different that it 'has no niche'.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
04-03-2012, 10:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
But that's just it. There's no use for that niche. If you want a cruiser, fly a cruiser. If you want a science ship, fly a science ship. The hybrid role that the Nebula is beastly at ... has no effective niche in this game.
Actually, I'd argue the reverse. If we are prepared to accept (as has been argued at length elsewhere on these forums) that the "Holy Trinity" of CC, Tank and DPS is NOT a part of STO, then the Nebula suits the game extremely well.

Very Good Control/Support with reasonable DPS and as much Tanking ability as a Cruiser.

it's a Jack of All Trades ship - about the only thing that could make it more "Jack" like is if you stuck a Tac Captain in the pilot seat.

Nebulas can slot 2x EPTW and 2x EPTS + 1x Aux2SIF II. (The EPTWs are to let you hit 125 Weapons Power constantly, the EPTS and Aux2SIF are for survivability) this leaves the Tac Sci slot open for Tac Team I and B:FAW (For AoE) or Attack Pattern Beta (to stack with Sensor Analysis). And you can swap the LT Engineering DOFF slot above out for another Tac if you feel that your survivability is "good enough".

Doing the above allows you to run at maxxed 125 Weapons and a good amount of Shields and AUX permanently on your Sci ship. Add in the ability to use high level versions of Tyken's Rift and/or Gravity Well, Tractor Beam Repulsors, Tachyon Beam, etc. etc. and you have quite a little powerhouse that's able to stop enemies dead in the water or drain their power systems down to nothing (especially if you add in the inherent Subsystem Targetting and "Tetryon Glider" - let alone Phased Polarons or Polarized Tetryons).

Or you can go all-out buffing/support which the Nebula is arguably one of the best ships in the game for (besides the P2W Odyssey) due to its ability to slot both Engineering Team 3 and Transfer Shield Strength III/HE3.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
04-03-2012, 01:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Traven158 View Post
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=251422

I've heard good things about that build, and it was highly recommended when I, too, had asked about Assault Cruiser builds.

Now, I just need to figure out if the Fleet Escort or the Assault Cruiser is better at getting in close while dealing out tons of damage.
Wow, I have to say, that assault cruiser build sounds nice. I'll get to work on it! Thanks for the link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
3 phaser beam arrays fore, 1 quantum torpedo fore.
3 phaser beam arrays aft, 1 quantum torpedo aft.

That way you don't have to worry about turning. Your fore and aft facings can launch a torp once shields are down. And your broadside is strong and powerful. Turning becomes a non-issue with that weapons setup. You fly at your own pace. It's simple, elegant and easy.

No messing around with dual beam banks or cannons or turrets. Just 6 beam arrays and 2 torpedoes.

@carmenara: The Nebula only has 6 weapon slots total. And it turns slow. If you want to fly a science ship fly the Intrepid retrofit. It works better than the Nebula at doing what that type of ship is designed to do.
That's actually not a bad idea. I'll be able to fly casually while shooting, and if they wander right in front/behind me, I can launch a volley, since my phasers will have brought their shields down by then.

But I was wondering, what would be the best ship weapons to attach? I'm not sure if Phasers are the right path.


*ignored off-topic posts*
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
04-03-2012, 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
So there's no use for a AoE CC based Science ship?
CC in STO is non-existent since 2010.

Quote:
Or a shield healing support ship?
The Nebula isn't the best at doing that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
04-03-2012, 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
Very Good Control/Support with reasonable DPS and as much Tanking ability as a Cruiser.
It has comparable control/support with inferior DPS and not quite as much tanking ability as a cruiser.

Anything else is really just trying to justify using the ship. It's not the best at DPS or at tanking. And to become great at control/support it will have to make sacrifices that other tanking focused ships won't have to make.

And it will never compete in DPS.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
04-03-2012, 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum
CC in STO is non-existent since 2010.
Really? All those people that start the whine threads about Science abilities being OP (and the subsequent nerfs) would probably disagree. Even up to a few months back GW was so powerful it could hold entire groups of player ships tight to be destroyed by their own team mates warp core explosions.
The only reason Science is falling out of favour now is because someone felt that allowing people to have up to 75% resistance to Science abilities was a good idea, even after reducing the effectiveness of Science abilities with the S5 changes. But that's a problem that affects all Science ships, not just the Nebula.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Superchum
The Nebula isn't the best at doing that.
Other than the Odyssey and D'Kyr (which is not far off identical to the Nebula), which other Fed ship can carry Extend Shields 2 and multiple copies of TSS? Those two abilities right there just made whoever you're using on them a lot tougher than they would be without and to use them the Nebula sacrifices very little, certainly not what an Intrepid or RSV would sacrifice; it's most powerful shield resistance buff.
But even then it still doesn't change the simple fact that the Nebula is still a Science ship with an LT and Ensign rather than LTC Sci (assuming you use the LT as a Science officer). The presence of an LTC Tac in the Excelsior doesn't change its role so much that it's useless and the slightly different stations of the Nebula don't alter its role so much that it has no niche to fill.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
04-03-2012, 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
CC in STO is non-existent since 2010.

CC non existent since 2010?

Pfft.

That's why Cryptic waited till S5 to nerf Scramble Sensors and Gravity Well...because they felt it was non-existent.:p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
04-03-2012, 05:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
It has comparable control/support with inferior DPS and not quite as much tanking ability as a cruiser.

Anything else is really just trying to justify using the ship. It's not the best at DPS or at tanking. And to become great at control/support it will have to make sacrifices that other tanking focused ships won't have to make.

And it will never compete in DPS.
Compete in DPS compared to what?

The raw DPS of weapons mounted on an Escort? Or a DPS specced Cruiser?
That's pretty obvious, and not what the ship is about.

How does it not being the "best" at Tanking or DPS disagree with the reasoning that I posted?

The point I'm making is that it can contribute noticable DPS, whilst simultaneously being effective at other things like healing, buffing and crowd control.

I really shouldn't need to try to "justify" the ship. It's not meant to be the best at DPS, or the best at tanking. It's a versatile ship, not a specialist. It's a JACK OF ALL TRADES, in a game that is basically built for non-specialists. The gravy is that it can be built to be very good at a support role, whilst simultaneously losing little of its effectiveness in DPS or Survivability.

On DPS: A Nebula will have sensor analysis and the ability to apply a host of Science debuffs, not to mention Gravity Well III and a DEM II. It's also the only Fed Science vessel that's able to run at 125 Weapons power constantly without giving up more than half its Engineering BOFF slots (and thus means it is also able to run a permanent EPTS at the same time). That puts it on par or above the other Sci ships, since even if you redirect your power levels into AUX for support, EPTW means you're still outputting a noticable level of damage at the same time. And all that is even before you take into account the fact that the universal LT slot also lets you slot a second Tac BOFF if you wish to. I'd call that DPS "reasonable", compared to other Science vessels and Tanking/Support (not DPS) specced Cruisers.

"Tanking Focussed" ships may well have slightly more survivability than a Nebula; due to them likely having more hull and a Commander Engineering Slot, but they will struggle to be able to hit the same levels of Aux Power (for spike Buffs/Healing/CC) and they certainly won't be able to use as high level Science Abilities. The Nebula is practically tailor-made for a support/cc role in endgame missions like "The Cure"... reasonably survivable, more manueverable than a cruiser, and able to lay out ridiculous amounts of healing and CC to protect the Kang whilst losing little in the way of DPS (yes, obviously not as much as a dedicated DPS ship, but enough to take out some incoming enemy vessels in ESTFs and at least noticably contribute to the overall team's damage via a combination of it's own raw firepower combined with its debuffing potential).

And finally, as the previous poster mentioned: for Shield Healing, it can slot a Transfer Shield Strength III and a Extend Shields II (something that no Cruiser save the Odyssey can do). For Hull healing, it can slot a Hazard Emitters III and an Engineering Team III. You could even use that Universal BOFF slot for another Sci BOFF if you wanted to.

It's a very versatile ship. If you don't think that translates into "useful", then fair enough, I'm not going to attempt to continually force you to agree with me and there are a lot of other ship choices in STO (like the Tac Assault Cruiser quoted in the thread title - Drat. I've wandered waaay Off Topic again... >.< )
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
04-03-2012, 09:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
"Tanking Focussed" ships may well have slightly more survivability than a Nebula; due to them likely having more hull and a Commander Engineering Slot, but they will struggle to be able to hit the same levels of Aux Power (for spike Buffs/Healing/CC) and they certainly won't be able to use as high level Science Abilities. The Nebula is practically tailor-made for a support/cc role in endgame missions like "The Cure"... reasonably survivable, more manueverable than a cruiser, and able to lay out ridiculous amounts of healing and CC to protect the Kang whilst losing little in the way of DPS (yes, obviously not as much as a dedicated DPS ship, but enough to take out some incoming enemy vessels in ESTFs and at least noticably contribute to the overall team's damage via a combination of it's own raw firepower combined with its debuffing potential).
This is exactly why I'm looking at the Nebula. Thanks so much for posting the detailed info
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
04-04-2012, 06:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
Compete in DPS compared to what?
Every single ship that has:

- More weapons to fire
- More tactical slots to boost damage

Quote:
The point I'm making is that it can contribute noticable DPS
Below average DPS isn't noticeable. I'll describe the Nebula in the same terms I once described Joe Johnson of the Atlanta Hawks.

The best thing you can say about Joe Johnson't ability to take over a game is that YES! Joe Johnson was there that evening!

He puts up soft numbers.

You're saying noticeable DPS is telling. What you're telling us is that YES! The Nebula was there! It was there and we noticed it firing at enemies!

That's not GOOD DPS. That's INFERIOR DPS. Compared to ships that actually put out DPS.

If that's your point, well, I'll concede that point.

What you're telling me is that the Nebula is indeed what I said it was. A hybrid that has no distinctive role. It can be replaced by another ship to do whatever it was you planned to do with it in that mission and the replacement can do that role better than it.

It's the Druid of EQ. If that Druid is your personal friend, it's great to have him along on the raid for the social aspects of it all. Raids did, after all, take forever and he filled up that time with more interesting conversation than half the twits in your guild. BUT if you need that spot filled by an effective or efficient healer ... the druid isn't what you're looking for. Or effective or efficient buffs? Or effective or efficient DPS? Nope and nope.

The Nebula can be your favorite ship. And you can fly it and enjoy it.

But noticeable DPS? Fill out a role efficiently?

Nah. Geko saw to it that the ship was going to be jack of a couple of trades and master of none.

Noticeable DPS ... that's probably the best description of mediocrity I've ever read in an MMO forum! Thanks for that.
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