Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
04-04-2012, 06:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
Every single ship that has:

- More weapons to fire
- More tactical slots to boost damage



Below average DPS isn't noticeable. I'll describe the Nebula in the same terms I once described Joe Johnson of the Atlanta Hawks.

The best thing you can say about Joe Johnson't ability to take over a game is that YES! Joe Johnson was there that evening!

He puts up soft numbers.

You're saying noticeable DPS is telling. What you're telling us is that YES! The Nebula was there! It was there and we noticed it firing at enemies!

That's not GOOD DPS. That's INFERIOR DPS. Compared to ships that actually put out DPS.

If that's your point, well, I'll concede that point.

What you're telling me is that the Nebula is indeed what I said it was. A hybrid that has no distinctive role. It can be replaced by another ship to do whatever it was you planned to do with it in that mission and the replacement can do that role better than it.

It's the Druid of EQ. If that Druid is your personal friend, it's great to have him along on the raid for the social aspects of it all. Raids did, after all, take forever and he filled up that time with more interesting conversation than half the twits in your guild. BUT if you need that spot filled by an effective or efficient healer ... the druid isn't what you're looking for. Or effective or efficient buffs? Or effective or efficient DPS? Nope and nope.

The Nebula can be your favorite ship. And you can fly it and enjoy it.

But noticeable DPS? Fill out a role efficiently?

Nah. Geko saw to it that the ship was going to be jack of a couple of trades and master of none.

Noticeable DPS ... that's probably the best description of mediocrity I've ever read in an MMO forum! Thanks for that.
This is literally spot on.

From someone who owns the Nebby and has played it ALOT, I can tell you, it is basically good for nothing, BUT it is the best science ship on Fed side for the same reason.

4 Arrays, 2 Torps
2 DBB, 1 Launcher, 3 Turrets
6 Beams
5 Launchers, 1 Array
3 Cannons, 3 Turrets

Uni Lt, as Tac - Done
Uni Lt, as Eng - Done
Uni Lt, as Sci - Done

I've done it all, I spent nearly a million BO Skill points, and 6 captain retrain tokens, and I just cant find a way to justify this ship, or any other Sci ship in an ESTF.

The 'best' option was prolly 5 Launchers, 1 Array, running 25/60/25/90 power, with 2xEPtS1, RSP1, ET2, A2SiF2/ES2 and HE1, ST2, CBP2, GW3, with TS1 and TS2,

This ship can't tank as well as a cruiser, it can't dps as well as a cruiser, CC is totally irrelevant as its just not needed any any end game situation, a Cruiser with HE1, ST2, ET3, ES3, A2SiF2 will also be better at healing AND tanking AND damage.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
04-04-2012, 06:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygone View Post
I've done it all, I spent nearly a million BO Skill points, and 6 captain retrain tokens, and I just cant find a way to justify this ship, or any other Sci ship in an ESTF.
I own it. I like its looks for sure. I've done 2 retrains for it (I'm stingy with retrains ... but did another two on Test) and spent about half the BO points you have and arrived at the same destination.

I can make it work yeah, but it doesn't excel at anything.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
04-04-2012, 08:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
I own it. I like its looks for sure. I've done 2 retrains for it (I'm stingy with retrains ... but did another two on Test) and spent about half the BO points you have and arrived at the same destination.

I can make it work yeah, but it doesn't excel at anything.
Oh absolutly, it can work, and because of its double Eng Boffs (one of which is a Lt. Cmd), it is by far the best of the Sci vessels on Fed Side,

I really think they could do with upping the weapon count on all sci vessles to 7, but that still leaves the GLARING issue that you need to run (to be effective), 3 different power levels at or close to 125 (Weapons, Shields, Aux)

This is why the Intrepid-Retro, should have its Ablative Generator be a toggle, even with the hull resistance you get, you are still WAY easier to kill that someone with Shields using EPtS skills,
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
04-04-2012, 10:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
Quote:
Compete in DPS compared to what?
Every single ship that has:

- More weapons to fire
- More tactical slots to boost damage
Is that an AND, an XOR or an EOR situation?

All things being equal, having an extra weapon would mean more damage. Likewise a Tac slot.
All things are not equal.

The Nebula has other capabilities to weigh against Weapon hardpoints and Tac Slots. For example, an RSV has 3 Tac slots, but can't run at 125 Weapons power without giving up all its Eng BOFF slots. And even though said refit is the slowest of the Sci Vessels, it's still more maneuverable than any of the Fed Cruisers - even the Excelsior.

Certainly it's maneuverable enough to use Double Beams and turrets if you really wanted to, rather than Single Beam Arrays, which would let it compete a bit more favourably in a DPS matchup against 'broadsiding'-built Cruisers. And if you're up on your weapon DPS comparisons, you'll already know that 8 Beam Arrays doesn't actually produce that much more raw dps than 6 Beam Arrays due to the extra power consumption forcing you to fire those 8 arrays at a lower average weapons' power setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
Quote:
The point I'm making is that it can contribute noticable DPS
You're saying noticeable DPS is telling. What you're telling us is that YES! The Nebula was there! It was there and we noticed it firing at enemies!

That's not GOOD DPS. That's INFERIOR DPS. Compared to ships that actually put out DPS.

If that's your point, well, I'll concede that point.
"Noticable" simply implies that you will notice it.
"Noticable" does not mean"Amazing" or even "Above Average".

My point was that when if both you and a Nebula are attempting to damage something, then that thing will die more quickly than if it was *just* you shooting at it. Basically: you are likely to notice the lessened time taken to kill stuff, compared to without the Nebula. Therefore the Nebula's contribution could be deemed "Noticable".

A practical example of this can be seen in game for STFs/ESTFs - a Nebula is quite capable of taking out a wing of Probes or BoP by itself. Providing that it is well built and piloted, a Nebula (or Odyssey) is even quite capable of defending the Kang solo until the first cube is killed and Raptors start spawning.

The poster below you agreed with your points as-stated, but made the telling comment that "CC is totally irrelevant as its just not needed any any end game situation" - I would hold that whilst CC might not be "needed", it can make things far safer, and quicker. Particularly in a PUG. The same goes for debuffs. If you have a team of 5 Unbuffed Escorts shooting at an enemy ship, or a team of 4 Buffed Escorts and a Science Vessel shooting at an enemy ship which is stopped dead in space with no weapons or sheilds or aux power, which team will last longer? which one will kill the enemy ship first?

If YOUR point is that a Nebula cannot output the same raw damage one-on-one as, say, a DPS-specced Escort, then I'll readily concede THAT point.

Quote:
Noticeable DPS ... that's probably the best description of mediocrity I've ever read in an MMO forum! Thanks for that.
*sigh*...

Fine, look: if your claim is that a ship that isn't DPS-orientated isn't the best at DPS, then I'll happilly agree with you.

DPS is obviously not the main forte of the Nebula. So the fact that a Nebula can keep on outputting its maximum DPS potential regardless of whether it's simultaneously throwing out large amounts of healing/buffing/debuffing/CC is obviously besides the point if you can just pickup another PUG Escort armed with Antiproton Dual Heavies to replace it.

...... Happy Now?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
04-04-2012, 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
Is that an AND, an XOR or an EOR situation?

All things being equal, having an extra weapon would mean more damage. Likewise a Tac slot.
All things are not equal.

The Nebula has other capabilities to weigh against Weapon hardpoints and Tac Slots. For example, an RSV has 3 Tac slots, but can't run at 125 Weapons power without giving up all its Eng BOFF slots. And even though said refit is the slowest of the Sci Vessels, it's still more maneuverable than any of the Fed Cruisers - even the Excelsior.

Certainly it's maneuverable enough to use Double Beams and turrets if you really wanted to, rather than Single Beam Arrays, which would let it compete a bit more favourably in a DPS matchup against 'broadsiding'-built Cruisers. And if you're up on your weapon DPS comparisons, you'll already know that 8 Beam Arrays doesn't actually produce that much more raw dps than 6 Beam Arrays due to the extra power consumption forcing you to fire those 8 arrays at a lower average weapons' power setting.



"Noticable" simply implies that you will notice it.
"Noticable" does not mean"Amazing" or even "Above Average".

My point was that when if both you and a Nebula are attempting to damage something, then that thing will die more quickly than if it was *just* you shooting at it. Basically: you are likely to notice the lessened time taken to kill stuff, compared to without the Nebula. Therefore the Nebula's contribution could be deemed "Noticable".

A practical example of this can be seen in game for STFs/ESTFs - a Nebula is quite capable of taking out a wing of Probes or BoP by itself. Providing that it is well built and piloted, a Nebula (or Odyssey) is even quite capable of defending the Kang solo until the first cube is killed and Raptors start spawning.

The poster below you agreed with your points as-stated, but made the telling comment that "CC is totally irrelevant as its just not needed any any end game situation" - I would hold that whilst CC might not be "needed", it can make things far safer, and quicker. Particularly in a PUG. The same goes for debuffs. If you have a team of 5 Unbuffed Escorts shooting at an enemy ship, or a team of 4 Buffed Escorts and a Science Vessel shooting at an enemy ship which is stopped dead in space with no weapons or sheilds or aux power, which team will last longer? which one will kill the enemy ship first?

If YOUR point is that a Nebula cannot output the same raw damage one-on-one as, say, a DPS-specced Escort, then I'll readily concede THAT point.



*sigh*...

Fine, look: if your claim is that a ship that isn't DPS-orientated isn't the best at DPS, then I'll happilly agree with you.

DPS is obviously not the main forte of the Nebula. So the fact that a Nebula can keep on outputting its maximum DPS potential regardless of whether it's simultaneously throwing out large amounts of healing/buffing/debuffing/CC is obviously besides the point if you can just pickup another PUG Escort armed with Antiproton Dual Heavies to replace it.

...... Happy Now?
This is actually quite a good discussion going on here, and mostly well written as well (really makes reading a wall of text ALLOT better).

I agree totally that CC is not needed; but if used CORRECTLY (see what I did there), can make.... well everything go that much smoother, it is however just as easy to push that Probe as it is to pull it.

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to be able to fly my Nebula in ESTFs and not look at the parser afterwards and know/think that it would have gone better in the Galaxy-X.

At the end of the day, MOST people totally suck at this game, you look at the parser at the end of a ESTF run and some cruiser has 30 different sources of damage (rainbow ftw), or you look at a cruiser that has done 200k healing (for point of reference (inc core breaches) I have 6 sources of damage, and heal for about 1.2million in an ESFT - mostly on myself as I end up tanking because my damage is correctly specced, so I do more threat)

Maelwys, I would really love for you to be able to come up with a Nebula build that works for ESTF, I know myself and Superchum have already tried it, that really really works.

If you don't have the parser I am happy to run ESTFs with you and see what we can come up with to try and get a build to work, (Uni as Tac?), but I just cant see it as viable,

I might even try and build it again this evening if I feel inclinded (which I honestly do)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
04-04-2012, 12:58 PM
Bit of theory crafting, with 2DBB, 1QLauncher and 3Turrets, running 125 Weapon Power, using the DPS calculator (which is really accurate btw), I can get the forward 90deg arc at 2952.044 with MK XII Borg gear and 2x MK IX Rare Phaser Relays using BFaW2. However the program will only allow 1 copy but extraperlating a 2nd copy will give you about 400 more DPS

This compared to my Gal-X with a 7 beam broadside, 125 weapon power and 3 MK IX Rare Phaser Relays, I can acheive 3285.891DPS

If and I stress IF, you can make a Nebula build where you can run the Uni. Lt. as a Tac (2 Copies of BFAW2 + TT1 + HYT1) You theoretically will out DPS the 7 array cruiser (Where BFaW is useless as most of the targets that you hit are immune / regen the damage you do to it) and you can easilly use FaW on DBB as the target selection has to basically be in front of you, you will have the Nebula out DPSing cruisers! This does NOT take into account Sensor Analysis btw.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
04-04-2012, 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygone View Post
Bit of theory crafting, with 2DBB, 1QLauncher and 3Turrets, running 125 Weapon Power, using the DPS calculator (which is really accurate btw), I can get the forward 90deg arc at 2952.044 with MK XII Borg gear and 2x MK IX Rare Phaser Relays using BFaW2. However the program will only allow 1 copy but extraperlating a 2nd copy will give you about 400 more DPS

This compared to my Gal-X with a 7 beam broadside, 125 weapon power and 3 MK IX Rare Phaser Relays, I can acheive 3285.891DPS

If and I stress IF, you can make a Nebula build where you can run the Uni. Lt. as a Tac (2 Copies of BFAW2 + TT1 + HYT1) You theoretically will out DPS the 7 array cruiser (Where BFaW is useless as most of the targets that you hit are immune / regen the damage you do to it) and you can easilly use FaW on DBB as the target selection has to basically be in front of you, you will have the Nebula out DPSing cruisers! This does NOT take into account Sensor Analysis btw.
Thanks for the numbers.

The Gal-X has two Tac BOFF slots and 3 Console slots, which is definitely more potential than some of the other endgame cruisers like the Star Cruiser or Galaxy Refit.

I think the DPS calculator (assuming we're talking about the same one by Nagorak) only goes up to Season 4, and doesn't take into account the recent skill changes or the bonus damage from activating EPTW (it's only 10% for 5 secs, but since you're stacking them every 30 secs it's up ~17% of the time) and as you previously mentioned, it also ignores sensor analysis. With a few purple Torpedo DOFFs you're probably looking at even more damage, assuming that the Nebula's going to try to keep stuff in its forward arcs and the Cruiser will be largely broadsiding. And then you've got the Sci powers to do a bit of extra kinetic damage (though I'll certainly agree that GW3 isn't as nasty as it used to be, surely it still helps a little - to keep enemies still so that you will never miss them, which will convert all your accuracy buffs into extra Critical severity, if nothing else) or knock out shields.

I'd better stress that the Nebula isn't my favourite ship in the game, I just think that it gets a bad rep - perhaps because the extra build options which that Universal BOFF slot opens up means people aren't sure how to fly it...? Never mind the odd (for a science vessel) Hull/Turnrate stats.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
04-05-2012, 08:55 AM
Tactical Cpt. with Assault Crusier could do good dps and offtank well too.

8 beams is very viable setup if your weapon power is 125 (or very very close to this). Sustainable dps in this setup is from 3.5k to 5k dps. With weapon power at 100-110, 6 beams and 2 torps (fore + aft) is better, 8 beams will do comparabe dmg than 6 with weapon power at 100.

To get this high your setup:

1 tac team 1 (with enough conn duty officer active to lower it timer to global 15 sec). Fire at will 1 Fire at Will 2.
Emerg. power to weapons 1 x2 Emerg. power to shields 2 x2 Reverse shield x2 1x hazard emiters 1x transfer shield.

Items you would want is 2 pieces of omega set with 6 points in flow on your cpt. (6k points total as it is rank 1). Asimilated console is a must too. You will drop all enemy shields fast, it will help your friendly torp loving escort friends

For borg cubes in stfs, keep one FaW ready for when cube fire torpedo to take it down, you will save lives of both yourself or other peoples as this torpedo when hit insta kills. Remeber that with conn officers tac team give bonus to patterns (alpha pattern). Dont forget to use batteries (shield, engine, aux) and using components to repair your butt after death (unless you are in pug than dont bother you will likely out dps everyone even damaged... and pugs on elite stfs are rather nightmarish)

Keep rotatin emergency so you have both always up.

Thats it, its all the basics to do well in elites, solo cubes, blowing up whole reinforced wave in ka after other gate blows and all that stuff.

One more tip attack tac cubes exactly from above 4km up and keep evasive ready for gtfo situation
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
04-05-2012, 09:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by arleonenis
Tactical Cpt. with Assault Crusier could do good dps and offtank well too.

8 beams is very viable setup if your weapon power is 125 (or very very close to this). Sustainable dps in this setup is from 3.5k to 5k dps. With weapon power at 100-110, 6 beams and 2 torps (fore + aft) is better, 8 beams will do comparabe dmg than 6 with weapon power at 100.

To get this high your setup:

1 tac team 1 (with enough conn duty officer active to lower it timer to global 15 sec). Fire at will 1 Fire at Will 2.
Emerg. power to weapons 1 x2 Emerg. power to shields 2 x2 Reverse shield x2 1x hazard emiters 1x transfer shield.

Items you would want is 2 pieces of omega set with 6 points in flow on your cpt. (6k points total as it is rank 1). Asimilated console is a must too. You will drop all enemy shields fast, it will help your friendly torp loving escort friends

For borg cubes in stfs, keep one FaW ready for when cube fire torpedo to take it down, you will save lives of both yourself or other peoples as this torpedo when hit insta kills. Remeber that with conn officers tac team give bonus to patterns (alpha pattern). Dont forget to use batteries (shield, engine, aux) and using components to repair your butt after death (unless you are in pug than dont bother you will likely out dps everyone even damaged... and pugs on elite stfs are rather nightmarish)

Keep rotatin emergency so you have both always up.

Thats it, its all the basics to do well in elites, solo cubes, blowing up whole reinforced wave in ka after other gate blows and all that stuff.

One more tip attack tac cubes exactly from above 4km up and keep evasive ready for gtfo situation
The Torpoedo does not insta kill, you can survie it, be it with about 1% hull hp.
8 Beams is less dps than 6+2 front launchers (tested this yesterday with the parser, 5k DPS in a cruiser is not possible unless u are using BFAW, and even when you do, most of that dmg is hitting things like gates etc that cant be damaged so tho it sohws as DPS, its irrelevant dmg
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
04-06-2012, 02:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygone View Post
The Torpoedo does not insta kill, you can survie it, be it with about 1% hull hp.
8 Beams is less dps than 6+2 front launchers (tested this yesterday with the parser, 5k DPS in a cruiser is not possible unless u are using BFAW, and even when you do, most of that dmg is hitting things like gates etc that cant be damaged so tho it sohws as DPS, its irrelevant dmg
Its possible :p Infected
kling 40.0 253423.97 5449.978 6335.599 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
Fed 28.6 99137.37 2131.9863 3466.3416 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
Nanite Generator 18.8 1520.75 32.7043 0.0 121439.055 2611.5925 248107.0 5335.6343 0.0 0.0
Nanite Transformer 18.1 0.0 0.0 0.0 676632.75 14551.242 0.0 0.0 248107.0 5335.6343
Fed 43.2 292283.06 6285.657 6765.8115 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
Fed 45.2 227242.47 4886.9346 5027.4883 2119.571 45.582172 8668.186 186.4126 8668.186 186.4126
Sphere 38.3 47705.63 1025.9275 2908.88 403295.47 8673.0205 51509.773 1107.737 51509.773 1107.737
Tachyon Drone 22.3 0.0 0.0 0.0 47106.812 1013.04974 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
Vuksan 46.5 329280.4 7081.299 7081.299 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

The end
Vuksan 399.8 1988273.4 4973.1704 5107.304 72342.58 180.94693 194715.28 487.03174 194715.28 487.03174

Could be more but i abuse BO to much
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