Lt. Commander
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# 21
04-08-2012, 11:24 PM
I agree that the way saucer sep was introduced in TNG was a gimmick, a way to show off that particular ability.

I remember reading somewhere (can't remember where now) that the designers originally intended the saucer separation to be used exactly as it was used in Generations - get the crew to safety in the event of a warp core breach or other catastrophic event.

There was another TNG episode where it was almost used for this purpose - "Disaster". They very nearly separated when the containment field was fluctuating or something to that effect.

The idea that separation could be used to move the saucer away during battle... I don't buy it. It doesn't have warp capability, so it's still gonna be near the battle when it's over, whether the stardrive section survives or not.

Now, they may have messed up the true purpose of saucer sep... but MVAM was clearly designed for combat, they at least got that right... and they did it during a hilarious episode of Voyager while they were at it.


"Stop breathing down my neck!"

"My breathing is merely a simulation."

"So is my neck, stop it anyway!"


That whole episode had me laughing.
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# 22
04-09-2012, 12:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destinii
As an aside, using the saucer for an emergency escape (to get away from the warp core and take as much crew as possible) does make some sense. However, the way it was introduced in TNG made it a dopey gimmick. And, MVAM is just *another* dopey gimmick. But, it's canon, so there we are.
When you think of the MVAM as three ships, being flown between battles by only one crew then it makes more sense. Your giving the other crews more downtime between conflicts so they perform better.
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# 23
04-09-2012, 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKnight1000
When you think of the MVAM as three ships, being flown between battles by only one crew then it makes more sense. Your giving the other crews more downtime between conflicts so they perform better.
Perform better in less capable ships. If you removed all the extra bulkheading needed to split the ship in three ways, along with the added warp cores and whatnot, you could make a more powerful ship with less materials. If all the extra weight needed for the separation mechanics, warp cores, etc, was put into beefing up the ship's armor and adding weapons, the ship would be better overall.

Honestly, the ship suffers from "Reverse Voltron" syndrome. In just about every episode of Voltron, the 5 separate Lions were less effective than the assembled Voltron was. How did someone think that taking one powerful ship and spliting it into three less powerful parts was a good idea?
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# 24
04-10-2012, 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destinii
Perform better in less capable ships. If you removed all the extra bulkheading needed to split the ship in three ways, along with the added warp cores and whatnot, you could make a more powerful ship with less materials. If all the extra weight needed for the separation mechanics, warp cores, etc, was put into beefing up the ship's armor and adding weapons, the ship would be better overall.

Honestly, the ship suffers from "Reverse Voltron" syndrome. In just about every episode of Voltron, the 5 separate Lions were less effective than the assembled Voltron was. How did someone think that taking one powerful ship and spliting it into three less powerful parts was a good idea?
Maybe to do with the warp emissions tearing apart subspace, being able to have 3 ships with 1 crew and usually 1 warp bubble doesn't sound like the worst idea the federation has ever green-lit

and more surface area=more phaser beam arrays
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# 25
04-10-2012, 07:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
None of that changes the fact that the secondary hull would lose the main impulse engines (which are on the primary), plus all the weaponry that is on the primary, shield generators, etc.

Meanwhile the primary hull is only an impulse vessel. It can't get far and would be easy prey for any warp capable ship.

For it to be a meaningful option, the saucer should be separated nowhere near battle, but then why fly with it at all in times of war? And why not build a ship that is simply stronger intact in the first place?

As for the multi-vector, again, the reality is that it becomes 3 ships, each easier to take down, without gaining any firepower. It might be useful if you have multiple targets that you need to deal with simultaneously, but other than that.....
Actually, the multi-vector gains quite a bit of firepower in its separated state, since the separation exposes additional phaser arrays on each segment.

And as anyone who's ever been on a real battlefield will tell you, it's a lot more unpleasant to be shot up from multiple angles than to face similar amounts of firepower all coming from one source. You have to figure out which target is the biggest threat in realtime, and divide your own firepower and defenses accordingly. You simply cannot fight as effectively against multiple opponents as you can against one.


Ultimately, saucer separation is a concession by the normally pacifist Federation that sometimes you have to duke it out. Remember Starfleet's primary function is exploration. Pretty much every ship they've ever fielded other than the Defiant and Prometheus classes is geared for science first and everything else further down the list. The saucer segment of a Galaxy-class is mostly labs and living quarters - the vast majority of the combat-related hardware is on the stardrive section. So in some cases a captain may opt to kick that deadweight frisbee to the curb and go in with the stardrive, which WILL be more agile despite the loss of impulse power because you're moving less than half the mass. This is of most value in a one-on-one scenario, where the enemy can't go after the civilians on the saucer without exposing themselves to the stardrive's arsenal.

Other functions for saucer separation include mimicking the MVAM trick of complicating the battlefield for an enemy by forcing them to face two opponents at once, or to use one sector as a giant lifeboat in the event the other sustains critical damage.

The Enterprise-D employed all three functions in the run of its service.
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# 26
04-10-2012, 08:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maximumname
Maybe to do with the warp emissions tearing apart subspace, being able to have 3 ships with 1 crew and usually 1 warp bubble doesn't sound like the worst idea the federation has ever green-lit

and more surface area=more phaser beam arrays
It's still a stupid idea.

And, when the ships split apart, I don't *see* many more phaser beam arrays... what I *do* see is all the attachment points and locks needed to keep the ships together - which requires extra space and weight that wouldn't be necessary if the ships didn't split apart. Plus, even though it's not in STO, in canon, there are different types of phaser arrays. Smaller ships wouldn't be able to mount the more powerful ones as one single ship would.

Ultimately, saucer separation was in TOS for emergency purposes only - a way for the crew to escape since there weren't any life pods on the original Enterprise.

Saucer Separation was incorporated for the D as a gimmick and a way to handwave the fact the ship was crewed with civilians and families ("We can just send the noncomatants away on the saucer while we fight with the stardrive!"). Note how little it was used in the series (4 times total, IIRC).

Ultimately, the gimmick was taken to its ultimate and almost nonsensical conclusion with the MVAE - a warship that could have a more powerful warp core, more powerful shields, and more powerful weapons if it didn't have all the wasted effort into making it split up.
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# 27
04-11-2012, 04:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destinii
I
Ultimately, the gimmick was taken to its ultimate and almost nonsensical conclusion with the MVAE - a warship that could have a more powerful warp core, more powerful shields, and more powerful weapons if it didn't have all the wasted effort into making it split up.
well, according to all the sites i looked at, the prometheus class in its "docked mode" has 12 type XII Phaser beam banks and 5 Quantum torpedo launchers, along with regenerative shields and Ablative armor. When in MVAM the prometheus class gains 3 quantum torpedo launchers and 6 more phaser arrays. which is a considerable amount of firepower, almost doubling its offensive capabilities.

if all three warp cores have the same output, then seperately they have the same strength shields and power levels for weapons.
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# 28
04-11-2012, 05:33 AM
Destinii since you are 100% convinced of your opinion being the only one that is valid, this is no longer a discussion.

In the show, the ship was far superior to it's in game performance. Be it Balance for fairness or limitations of the game engine.

The ship must be balanced for play. That means you don't get to outfit 3 warships and choose which one to fly in battle it means you outfit one ship and fly it with modified stats and 2 pets of little use.
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# 29
04-11-2012, 06:01 AM
Saucer srpartion needs to happen
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# 30
04-11-2012, 06:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
None of that changes the fact that the secondary hull would lose the main impulse engines (which are on the primary), plus all the weaponry that is on the primary, shield generators, etc.

Meanwhile the primary hull is only an impulse vessel. It can't get far and would be easy prey for any warp capable ship.

For it to be a meaningful option, the saucer should be separated nowhere near battle, but then why fly with it at all in times of war? And why not build a ship that is simply stronger intact in the first place?

As for the multi-vector, again, the reality is that it becomes 3 ships, each easier to take down, without gaining any firepower. It might be useful if you have multiple targets that you need to deal with simultaneously, but other than that.....
QFT.
Everything of import is in the primar hull. Teh main source of pwoer. The bigegst guns.

The parts that seperate - they have only a phaser or two. They have no warp core to supply power. They have no warp capacity.
Hence, their shielding, endurance and firepower cannot possibly match the battle section.

You either focus on takign them down OR (even better) you focus all firepower on the central section then just warp away. With only impulse and limtied power avilalbe, the two other sections ain't going anywhere and dont' have long to live.
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