Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
04-07-2012, 03:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Revo
there are a lot of editors that are so complex that most casual players would not have the first clue how to use them. you said yourself that you have spent years doing it on many games. you know what you are doing. most people dont. the foundry is designed for that type of player. its designed so anyone can pick it up and start making missions within a few hours.
I've seen plenty of editors that are easy to use but difficult to master.
This one isn't difficult to master because there's really nothing to master.

I can only hope we get more options in the future, because this one is so limited it hurts...physicly.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
04-07-2012, 04:22 PM
I, too think that the foundry editor is a disappointment from the ground up. There are some OKish elements, but all in all, it is not good. Add to the insult that it's been in beta for like 18 months now. Cryptic said earlier that they can create an AAA title in 18 months. The foundry in its current shape is far from AAA, it is more like a hobby project.

However, to be absolutely fair, the foundry has some depth to it. Easy to use but difficult to find and master the workarounds. It is easy to use it as intended, to create a cookie cutter mission.

However, try to build a completely branched and parallelized mission with plenty of optionals and multiple endings + believable environment and ambient + custom interiors and/or enterable buildings. Believe it or not, you can do all that with the foundry but it is not easy.
You can't customize every single aspect of the enemy mobs, but you have tools there, too. You can reskin a weak space mob to show battleships, thus create an menancing looking battle group that is easy to pop. On the other hand, you can reskin a borg dreadnought to look like a runabout. Then you can call it a timeship because it packs a Cube's punch in a tiny package.

NPC scripting is absent, which is extremely painful in space, because that makes believable escort missions are all but impossible. It also makes the space part somewhat static and stale compared to the ground part, where you have workarounds.

So in case of the foundry, mastering means creating exactly what you want, using the small number of limited tools provided.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
04-07-2012, 04:56 PM
Quote:
This one isn't difficult to master because there's really nothing to master.
I have to disagree, when it comes to really doing some of the things that Pendra mentions. Item placement takes a ton of time and patience, and building complex sets requires a very experienced knowledge of what is and is not available as assets. Branching dialogue and branching stories, especially with complex triggers can make someone pull out their hair, especially when it comes to mastering the knowledge of how the bugs impact each thing that you try to do.

And, the learning curve isn't particularly easy and it is not as intuitive as somebody at Cryptic views it. A dev has to master it, and we've seen that one dev who has made a mission still has a few things to learn from the Foundry community, as far as polishing a mission.

But, if you're just wanting to create a Cryptic patrol that is pointless, then there is nothing to master.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
04-07-2012, 06:25 PM
I also have to disagree with the "nothing to master" comment. That's far from the case. Using the limited tools you can do pretty complex things, but it does require that you completely master them.

The combination of branching dialogues, the ability to show/hide dialogue buttons, and the ability to trigger things based on dialogue prompt reached, actually results in a limited ability to "program" the mission to respond differently to the player's actions. It's clunky as hell, kind of like programming on an old 1950s punch card computer, or maybe an abacus. Something you could do in a couple lines of actual programming code, can require half a dozen branches, but it's there.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
04-07-2012, 11:06 PM
Hey, I'm just thrilled to be able to tell Star Trek stories.

Any good craftsman is limited by his tools, and I'll grant without hesitation that to use these tools to their full potential you need to be one hell of a craftsman. Personally I intend to get back to my Aurora engine once my son becomes a little less demanding time-wise.

But I've found the forge an excellent diversion, and I'm really enjoying being able to tell stories set in what has long been my favorite franchise (and will be again one day once my army of assassin nanites track down Jar Jar Abrams <evil laugh>Muah hahaha</evil laugh>).

Does it need work? Heck, yeah. But I'm glad to have it.

A few script hooks might be nice though...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
04-08-2012, 02:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkfat View Post
I have to disagree, when it comes to really doing some of the things that Pendra mentions. Item placement takes a ton of time and patience, and building complex sets requires a very experienced knowledge of what is and is not available as assets. Branching dialogue and branching stories, especially with complex triggers can make someone pull out their hair, especially when it comes to mastering the knowledge of how the bugs impact each thing that you try to do.
That is not mastery, that is torture.
Spending hours to adjust X,Y,Z of an item because the tool is clunky is not "mastery".

There are a few tricks and workarounds (like invisible objects, objects within objects, etc..), but it remains incredibly limited. I experimented, checked out all tutorials (video and text ones) I could find.

I still can't make the mission I wanted. And it's really a simple mission. But too complex for this tool apparently.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
04-08-2012, 05:14 AM
I take you want these things in your mission:
Ability to set orders for ships and squadrons (move, patrol, attack, escort, etc..)
You can add wander, but AFAIK it is crap in space. The ships move extremely slow. The only way you can make a ship "move" is to make it engage an enemy ship. Build a chain of fighters or something easy to kill. Then the ships start to "patrol" along a line as they move to kill that next fighter, just in range.

Ability to to set IFF of each and every ship individually and alter it. For NPC ships and squadrons.
IFF you can do. Place a Fed mob and add BOP skin to the actors:You have friendly BOPs that kill other (real) BOPs. Or place an enemy mob and skin them as Fed ships, there you have some "traitor" Feds.
You can't alter the friend or foe status.

Ability to set modifiers and starting stats (like HP) for each ship.
HP, ability, you can set to an extent. As I mentoned before: want a BOP have lots of HP, then reskin a Borg dreadnough to BOP. Or want a weak battleship, reskin a frigate to look like a battleship. Also each factions have different abilities. So if you want to make a BOP use polaron weapons, just reskin a Jem Hadar ship.


Some proper conditional scripts to use (IF, THEN, ELSE, <, >, =, etc..)
IF THEN ELSE you can use with the branching dialogs and dialog prompt reached. Also you can do <,>,= to an extent. In my mission Hijacked, I could make the game count the dead hostages. I opted it out at the end, because it was complicated and didn't add much extra. At the moment, it counts like this 0 / At least 1 / All hostages dead. The debriefing at the end takes that into account and gives different text like:
0 dead : You did great!
At least 1 dead: Well, you saved most of the crew.
All dead: You completely borked the mission!

Cleaned up assets list and more assets (I couldn't make my own romulan commander for example)
There are lots of useless assets present while there are tons of missing assets. If you need something not present, there is a chance that you can build it using the existing stuff, creativity and carefull planning.

Ability to make Cutscenes.
It would surely add to the immersion, but I don't miss them personally.


Can you give us the basic plot of the mission you would like to make?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
04-08-2012, 06:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendra80 View Post
You can't alter the friend or foe status.
You can set a friendly to turn unfriendly using invisible walls. It's clunky, but it works OK in the right situation.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
04-08-2012, 06:58 AM
I used it on the ground in Hijacked and was not that impessed. Especially when the BOFFs jumped through the invisible wall and started a fight with the enemy I just made peace with.
In space, it is even more problematic because of the missing invisible floor and ceiling.

But this does not change the friend or foe status. It just turns a neutral(ish) ship to enemy. You can't turn an enemy ship to friendly or a friendly ship to enemy with a trigger.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
04-08-2012, 07:09 AM
so what were you trying to do? It sounds like you're frustrated that something you tried didn't work.
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