Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 AE or MVAE for Sci?
04-07-2012, 08:28 PM
I'm sorry if there's been lots of threads on this, but I can't help but be curious. I'm somewhat set on the AE as an escort for my Sci toon, but I've noticed that the two variants have different BOff slots. I'm just wondering which might be better overall? I don't know if I'd have much use for an Ensign third Tac slot, but am I missing something?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
04-08-2012, 03:38 AM
MVAE, You get Grav Well or any other nice Sci Power. Just run a BO or TS on the 3rd Ensign.

AE You get higher Tac powers and lose a lot of the versatility and the gimick of the MVAE.

I would argue same captain similar layout the AE would deal more damage, due to higher Tac powers, Grav Well will save your Optional on Infected far far too often.

Don't like Grav Well? How about Tryken's Rift, Energy Siphon, Viral Matrix, what ever you like. Heck even more Healing.
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# 3
04-08-2012, 09:48 AM
I think the console is transferrable between both ships, so gimmick is no issue. But alright, I'll look at my BOffs and see if there's anything I need more between the LCDR Tac and Sci. Thank you!
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Posts: 120
# 4
04-08-2012, 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostzephyr
I think the console is transferrable between both ships, so gimmick is no issue. But alright, I'll look at my BOffs and see if there's anything I need more between the LCDR Tac and Sci. Thank you!
As a Lt Cmd Sci power in an escort that runs no Aux, use the Lt Cmd powers for their 'effects' rather than the damage, as quite frankly the damage will be laughable.

Decent options for the Lt Cmd in teh MVAM

TSS1 / HE2 / ST3
TB1 / HE2 / ST3
HE1 / ST2 / VM1
HE1 / ST2 / GW1
HE1 / ST2 / PSW

for HPS, ST3 with 2 DLS Purple Doffs, out heals TSS3 at 125 Aux, only thing is, it don't have the shield resist on it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
04-09-2012, 05:05 AM
Pop an Aux battery, I know only 2 device slots but it's a great way to get that burst of Aux.

To get an AE that can Separate one still needs to buy the MVAE
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
04-09-2012, 03:59 PM
I typically use an Advanced Escort in STF's since my build relies more on Tractor Beam Repulsors instead of Gravity Well.

So, why use Tractor Beam Repulsors over Gravity Well? Simple: TBR works far better at clearing inbound borg ships and nanite spheres -- this is critical when you are trying to destroy a nanite generator, protect the Kang, or trying to prevent drones from reaching the temporal gate to meet elite STF bonuses. Gravity Well can only hold a target at its present location, while TBR + Evasive Maneuvers can push opponent well clear of your objective target, therefore buying the team a LOT more time.

You only need Tractor Beam Repulsors 1, a Lt-rank science BO ability, to be effective, thereby allowing your build to focus on Cmdr and Lt.Cmdr tactical BO abilities for extra damage output.

Here are the BO-layout on my Advanced Escort:
-Cmdr Tactical Station: Tactical Team 1, Canon Scatter Volley 1, Cannon Scatter Volley 2, Attack Pattern Omega
-Lt.Cmdr Tactical Station: Tactical Team 1, Torpedo Spread 2, Torpedo Spread 3
-Lt. Engineer Station: Emergency Power to Shields 1, Emergency Power to Shields 2
-Lt. Science Station: Science Team 1, Tractor Beam Repulsors 1
-Ensign Science Statoin: Hazard Emitters 1

This build has enough AoE damage output to stop probe waves from reaching the temporal gate in the Elite KA, solo nanite probes + incoming Borg BoP's in Elite Cure, and mass-push nanite spheres away in Elite Infected. All essential bonus requirements are covered by the above.
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Posts: 120
# 7
04-10-2012, 07:15 AM
I am partial to the MVAE. I have both and have been messing around with each ship. I like the Advance build mentioned earlier and will try it out. Should be fun with my 4 purple torpedo DOFFs. THe MVAE is all about the gravity well to save the optionals. I will try out the repulser build versus my MVAE let you guys know.
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# 8
04-10-2012, 07:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
I typically use an Advanced Escort in STF's since my build relies more on Tractor Beam Repulsors instead of Gravity Well.

So, why use Tractor Beam Repulsors over Gravity Well? Simple: TBR works far better at clearing inbound borg ships and nanite spheres -- this is critical when you are trying to destroy a nanite generator, protect the Kang, or trying to prevent drones from reaching the temporal gate to meet elite STF bonuses. Gravity Well can only hold a target at its present location, while TBR + Evasive Maneuvers can push opponent well clear of your objective target, therefore buying the team a LOT more time.
Ok a couple of points:

ISE: Unless your team is really terrible, GW should be enough to buy some time to take out the nanite generator (those terrible teams do exists, I concede that - but running in "premades" through the global channel, its extremely rare). On a decent/good team, this will never be an issue as the generator will be gone before the spheres even get within 10km.

CSE: A single, solid escort can completely protect Kang from BoPs. The entire team should be on defend once raptors starting spawing. GW works very well here, you just need something to slow them down while you kill them. You shouldn't need TBR or GW, unless something has gone wrong. GW helps keep enemies clumped for focused AoEs, TBR is the better emergency power if you have several ships right on top of Kang and some trigger happy team mates who destroy them when they are too close to the Kang.

KASE: An MVAE with Gravity well, 2x CSV & 1 or 2x TS should be able to eat a ham sandwhich while guarding against just probes, and might be under threat of falling asleep out of boredom. If you need TBR here it means something has gone terribly wrong.


TBR is the much stronger in terms of being able to clear an area - but it also has the negative side effect of scattering your targets.

GW on the other hand clumps everything into a neat ball for you to unload with CSV + TS.


I've seen, on the whole, TBR used to team detriment more than team benefit on Elite STFs.


Now, I have nothing against the AE. I think its a very good ship.

The difference is really a preference between the more tactical focus of the AE or the utility of the Lt Comm Sci slot on the MVAE.

I've flown both & I like both, my only complaint is not having pet commands along with the MV console.



Quote:
Originally Posted by vipermjd View Post
I am partial to the MVAE. I have both and have been messing around with each ship. I like the Advance build mentioned earlier and will try it out. Should be fun with my 4 purple torpedo DOFFs. THe MVAE is all about the gravity well to save the optionals. I will try out the repulser build versus my MVAE let you guys know.
I'm almost sure that you can stack a maximum of 3 PWO DOFFs.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
04-10-2012, 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
Ok a couple of points:

ISE: Unless your team is really terrible, GW should be enough to buy some time to take out the nanite generator (those terrible teams do exists, I concede that - but running in "premades" through the global channel, its extremely rare). On a decent/good team, this will never be an issue as the generator will be gone before the spheres even get within 10km.
This is precisely my point -- GW cannot carry a sub-par team, but TBR can. Even if the targets get scattered, they are still thrown clear of the mission bonus objective that players are supposed to protect or destroy. Furthermore, GW consumes a Lt.Cmdr BO ability, while TBR only requires a Lt. BO ability. This is the difference between carrying Torpedo Spread 1+2 vs. 2+3, and the latter combo delivers a LOT more damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
CSE: A single, solid escort can completely protect Kang from BoPs. The entire team should be on defend once raptors starting spawing. GW works very well here, you just need something to slow them down while you kill them. You shouldn't need TBR or GW, unless something has gone wrong. GW helps keep enemies clumped for focused AoEs, TBR is the better emergency power if you have several ships right on top of Kang and some trigger happy team mates who destroy them when they are too close to the Kang.
GW cannot deal with multiple targets approaching from different directions -- it is strictly a stationary AoE hold, while TBR can do an arching sweep to push the highest threat targets away. The player captain still has to know how to maximize TBR effect, but those who are familiar with it use Evasive Maneuvers when distance is needed, and standard impulse to keep targets together. Once an attack group closes into firing range of your objective, GW cannot reposition them out of range. While TBR can rescue your team from these situations, GW is unable to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
KASE: An MVAE with Gravity well, 2x CSV & 1 or 2x TS should be able to eat a ham sandwhich while guarding against just probes, and might be under threat of falling asleep out of boredom. If you need TBR here it means something has gone terribly wrong.
An Advanced Escort can more easily clear all Elite Cure nanite probes and incoming Borg BoP's due having both Torpedo Spread 2 and 3 instead of settling for just 1+2. The superior firepower makes a difference, enough so that my AE can solo a Borg Negh'Var without any help. The AE can sit at an Elite Cure cube clearing nanite probes and BoP's all day with only CSV1+2 and TS2+3 and nothing else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
TBR is the much stronger in terms of being able to clear an area - but it also has the negative side effect of scattering your targets.

GW on the other hand clumps everything into a neat ball for you to unload with CSV + TS.

I've seen, on the whole, TBR used to team detriment more than team benefit on Elite STFs.

Now, I have nothing against the AE. I think its a very good ship.

The difference is really a preference between the more tactical focus of the AE or the utility of the Lt Comm Sci slot on the MVAE.


...<SNIP>...
While I do agree that GW makes CSV and TS more convenient, having higher overall DPS with TBR instead of lower DPS + Gravity Well makes a stronger, more flexible STF ship. The ability to mass-throw slow moving opponents clear of the active area is HUGE, and the 30 second cooldown is more icing on the cake.
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Posts: 120
# 10
04-10-2012, 10:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
GW cannot deal with multiple targets approaching from different directions -- it is strictly a stationary AoE hold, while TBR can do an arching sweep to push the highest threat targets away.
What situation are you describing?

At no point on CSE should you have multiple targets close to the kang from multiple directions.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
The player captain still has to know how to maximize TBR effect, but those who are familiar with it use Evasive Maneuvers when distance is needed, and standard impulse to keep targets together.

I've seen a lot of people do what you describe, and it still scatters opponents. TBR does not clump enemies up into a ball for focus firing with CSV & Torps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
Once an attack group closes into firing range of your objective, GW cannot reposition them out of range. While TBR can rescue your team from these situations, GW is unable to do so.
Well, yeah. That's why you use GW before that becomes an issue.

Why would you wait for enemies to get that close to the target to drop GW on them?

If we're assuming the competence to use TBR correctly, we need to assume equal competence to use GW correctly as well.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
The superior firepower makes a difference, enough so that my AE can solo a Borg Negh'Var without any help. The AE can sit at an Elite Cure cube clearing nanite probes and BoP's all day with only CSV1+2 and TS2+3 and nothing else.
I think your overestimating just how 'superior' that firepower is. Only a certain number of Torpedos from TS can actually hit a specific single target, and even with a shield facing down not all of those will actually hit the hull. (I'll do some testing if I can this weekend to provide better numbers on how many from each rank of TS will hit hull).

TS 3 adds another target (4 vs. 3), but IIRC has the same amount of Torpedos per target as 2 does. So against a single target like a Negvar the difference in firepower is negligible.

I have a Fleet Escort, Defiant, MVAE and AE and all of them can solo a Negvar.

Lastly, if you are clearing probes on CSE you should not be worrying about BoPs. That's the duty of the Kang Defender. (You also can't do it all day as you only get 15 mins for the optional. :p)

It only takes 1 good escort to completely neutralize all of the BoPs. An excellent one can also provide some backup heals, and fire support to team mates dealing with probes/cubes (I often toss FOMM on Cubes or Negvars as I'm cycling between BoP spawns).



I agree the more tactically focused AE has the better damage output of the two, but I don't think its as huge a gap as you're making it sound and if I was really focused on pure damage dealing capabilities I'd stick to the Fleet Escort (as the ensign eng opens up the lt eng slot for RSP) as it has pretty much everything you need to deal excellent damage.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
While I do agree that GW makes CSV and TS more convenient, having higher overall DPS with TBR instead of lower DPS + Gravity Well makes a stronger, more flexible STF ship. The ability to mass-throw slow moving opponents clear of the active area is HUGE, and the 30 second cooldown is more icing on the cake.
To be perfectly honest, I would take a second copy of TSS 1 or Polarize Hull 1 before I took TBR on my AE.

I've just haven't felt the need for a push back power at all.
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