Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
04-08-2012, 04:13 PM
I completely agree. I absolutely do not want to see the mandatory "tank, healer and dps" to accomplish anything. One of the virtues of STO is that it's extremely versatile of role in space. Your career does not define your ship class, where instead, ships play to your BOff's powers. The couple of self-casted powers from your career that are on 2~5 minute CD's are all but flavoring. The rest are all team wide regardless of ship.
Don't underestimate a Sci's Sensor Scan in an Escort. An engineers Modulate Shields in a Science, A Tac's APAlpha and Go Down Fighting in a torpedo-boat cruiser using Warp Plasma III.
Everything viable. Everything more efficient in different ways in diffident ships.

Myself, I much enjoy playing in Science ships over Cruisers and Escorts. To me, science vessels are very hands on. I like intricate control of my environment of battle. CC's, self and ally heals, HoT's and buffs. AoE DoT's and debuffs.
Escorts however, I find rather... boring. Kill it faster than it can kill me. Yay. But the incessant nerfing they've been doing to Science powers has been taking down Science ships viability, even outside of STF's, by leaps and bounds backwards.

Gah, I'm babbling again, sorry. I do that a lot....

It's very true that ship's and BOff powers are in a very sad state of disarray and imbalance right now. And it gets worse every time they try tinker with something. Usually doing so with the reason being inevitably related back to PVP play.

But for STF's and the situation of diversity, aside from forcing the trinity, it can't be fixed. It's just an inherent flaw with a drop-exclusive item based system. And the timed Optional with it's own drop only exacerbates the problem.
They want it done now. Fast. Get in and get out.
And then stand around in ESD, Qo'nos or DS9 [or SW, Orgrim or Dalaran back in WoW] chat complaining how much everyone ticks them off. How the drop rate is BS. How the company is ruining the game. How it's everything else that's wrong, but their own attitude and why they are still playing when they obviously don't want to be.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
04-08-2012, 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cliftona91
And my Negh'var can put out some respectable DPS while keeping the suicidal escorts alive so they can fire their cannons. So somebody that can heal is a good thing to have as long as they can deal the damage as well.
Yeah, but I guess your not Kewl to the l33ts......

Thier loss.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
04-08-2012, 07:15 PM
Sometimes, when you take a Sci captain or vessel into an STF, you can almost actually feel the dirty looks. If you listen to the attitude of some of these Tac captains in escorts (you know, the kind who would harp about "not enough dps"), and imagine if they actually had their way in their little world of end-game-is-life, science vessels should not even bother to exist. (And cruisers can stay, as long as they attract all the aggro, so their escorts can hug their targets without repercussions.)

Ironically, these very same people would cry foul in a ground STF without a medic, or especially if there is a Sci captain that is not wearing their Medic kit (especially should the captain be the only Sci in the group). You must be wearing your Medic kit. We hate your playstyle in Space and don't need your heals there, but now you sure as hell better be doing your job. Why? Because you can't just run kamikaze. If you die and respawn, you end up minutes' worth of a run away, or usually stuck behind a force field, unable to rejoin the fight. You must rely on your teammates to revive you, while they, too, are in the middle of being attacked. In some extreme cases, such as the end of Cure ground, a Sci captain with a Medic kit is even mandatory when possible, according to those very same STF mantras that those kinds of end-game-is-life people love to regurgitate.

But while I resent the sentiments, I don't blame them. It is the fault of the various designs which has fostered this kind of meta; all that the players in end-game culture do is try to optimize and min-max everything, and always they do.

I, too, have cast wary glances in the directions of various science vessels and cruisers that spawn beside me, as it has been even my own personal experience that many of them leave... much to be desired, to say the least. This isn't to suggest escorts are inherently better, only that it's harder to mess up in an escort. To speak of the average escort, you stack all the skills and consoles matching your weapons that you can, and mash space and skills whenever they light up! If the average cruiser or science vessel played like this, it would probably end much, much worse, and it is probably not a stretch to say there are many flying around just like this, even as we speak. In short, even a lackluster escort can put forth a commendable effort, just by nature of how the escorts are designed to be played, and how the STFs are designed to be completed. And in pick-up-groups of random players, the simpler, easier, and faster the method, the more it is desired by default; it is a shame, but it is the mantra.

It is up to the developers to change it; the meta will adjust accordingly, because that's what it does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreael
My other main game is League of Legends.
(Interesting that you mention the roles of LoL, Kreael, because Tanky DPS seems to have the same issue in the meta of that game, too. Too much survivability and yet decent damage and even crowd control built into the same package. Tanks can't keep them held down long enough, AP nukers' static damage falls off versus their tankiness by endgame, and carries almost have to build glass cannon to have enough damage to whittle them down with any consistency and get rolled by them as a result; sometimes it's as if it's pointless not to play Tanky DPS. A properly balanced team knowing exactly what to do together from the very start can counter them, but in general random play, Tanky DPS is the name of the dominating game, just as it is here; also a shame.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
04-08-2012, 08:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreael
Tanking
Firstly there is very little need for tanking in STFs. The only targets that I have ever had problems tanking in a dps escort are Tac Cubes, Donatra, and swarms of enemies (like 4-5 spheres all focusing me).
You've just named nearly everything that isnt a probe, or a station target that barely defends itself.

The only things you left out are the Negvar/Raptor spawns when you destroy upper nanites in CSE and Gates.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreael
In most games the tank has a significantly higher ability to absorb damage than anyone else and that is just not the case in STO. Instead it plays more like a sustain style where everyone packs enough defense and healing to stay alive until the enemy is dead or you are forced to disengage. This is a small chart of my three ship stats with buffs. I hope the formatting isn't terrible. All 3 ships are using maco Mk 11, 2 neutronium alloy armors, and 2 field generators.

Type - Fleet Escort....Sovereign...Recon Science Vessel
Shields--10,104............11,227........14,595
Resist----44%/47%.......52%/55%.....44%/51%.......(first number is /w Epower, second is with TSS)
Heal------3,731.............4,808...........6369....(one application of each buff, 45 sec)
Hull-------41,217.............53,583........37,095
Resist--- 25%/40%.......25%/44%......25%/42%........(first number is no buff, second is with both)
Heal------17,673.............25,810........20,813........... .(one hazard emitter, 3 aux to structure, 45 sec)
Defense---62%.................48%............60%
Order (E power to shields, transfer shield strength, hazard emitters, aux to structure)
Buff Ranks- 1/1/2/1.......3/1/2/3........1/3/2/2

As you can see side by side the escort is not significatly lower in any of the catigories
You left out so many things.

For example those resistances create "effective HP" and the more base hull you have the more those resistances boost those HP.

Why does the Sovereign only have 2 Neutroniums in your example? Cruisers have 4 Eng slots for a reason.

You also left out BOFF slots entirely, and the fact that a Cruiser can have things like 2x EPTS 3 which is 30% resistance to your shields vs. the 18% that an Escort gets from EPTS 1.

EPTS 3 also provides higher Shield Power setting, and higher shield regeneration than EPTS 1.

The higher your Shield power, the more resistant your shields are. So those numbers you put up are off.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreael
And sadly Tac Team is the single most powerful/needed tank ability in the game as against borg torpedoes no one can hull tank for an extended period of time. Either you shields hold or your dead in 30 seconds.
Aside from Invisi-torps:

1) You can shoot down the HYTs.

2) You can stay above or below a cube and avoid nearly all, if not all, Torpedo fire completely.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
04-08-2012, 11:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiberry
I completely agree. I absolutely do not want to see the mandatory "tank, healer and dps" to accomplish anything.
I agree that it is a good thing that you don't need do build up a well balanced group in STO. There is nothing more annoying than looking 1 hour for a specific class type that you need.

!BUT! the problem is that support/heaing in STO is not just not required, but in fact unfavored compared to simply do more damage. Espacially when it comes to space STFs.

This topic should not be about that cruisers cannot match the damage of a escort. Of course you can build a cruiser (escpcially Klinks) that can dish out alot of damage, going toe a toe with a escort. But, why than not flying a much more mobile escort?

I currently play my cruiser in a support role. And, compared to other MMORPGs I have played, I feeling quite underperforming. In nearly every MMORPG I have played, support classes were necessary or at least highly welcomed - the opposite is true in STO (in space)! The reason is that STO tries to break the classical roles of healer, tank, dps - but simultanously making death meaningless combined with giving a time limitation on end content game (STFs). This result in healer/supporter (in space) beeing just meaningless, favoring raw dps.

I completly agree with the original poster that the support/healing role must be pushed in STO. Otherwise you can simply convert all ships into escorts and eng/sci chars into tacs. Because there is no need for them.

I think another solution would be to have 3 optionals goals. One with time limitation as currently designed for a group with more damage power. One requiring healing (e.g. like protecting a structure/ship) designed for groups having healing, and one where is crowd control necessary, designed for sci. If you have a well balanced group, you can beat all three goals, if you have a group favor damage, healing or crowd control, all optional goals will be hard to complete.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
04-09-2012, 05:50 PM
@USS_Ultimatum
- As far as tanking everything except tac cubes, Donotra, and swarms that is what I meant. Negs, raptors, regular cubes, etc are not a problem to tank in a standard escort unless there are a ton of them all targeting ONLY you. That means for 95% of the STF I am under no threat of dying in a DPS focused ship without a tank present unless I make a mistake.
- I know about effective HP, and I know about the higher ranks of boff abilities considering the chart takes into account the various ships will be using higher/lower ranks of them to achieve the stats I listed, the cruiser is running with Epower to shields 3, ironically though it does not have a higher shield power setting than the escort, they are the same (although if cruiser does rotate Epower to weapons it could have a higher one the resistance is insignificant at that point thanks to DR). The resistance from shield power (70 base, forget exact number with Epower) was taken into account to produce those resistance numbers, as was the diminishing returns that were suffered. I also know that the cruiser can stack extra armor consoles to achieve a higher resistance rate and being to suffer from diminishing returns especially when his boff abilities are up. The point of that was to illustrate the fact that the escort is not that far below what the other two are to a significant degree. Yes you can produce a zombie build cruiser that can take 3-4x the damage to pop as the escort by sacrificing the ability to deal damage that is not the point. The point is that there is NO NEED for a tank in an STF.
- Its not the HY that one shots me typically as I do stay above it, unless I'm in a hurry and just pop brace for impact and let cube eat its own torp damage while I survive. There are just some random times when you espode in Elites for no apparent reason in my experience, it doesn't happen very often but it does.

@FB2140
True about LoL, although atleast since it is a pvp game at its core you can easily counter tanky DPS if you play properly. My sion hates ashe so very much.

@whamhammer
It is very possible for science vessels & cruisers to put out enough damage if built properly, but this thread was more about the lack of a need for those ships to do what they are designed to do, cc, buff, heal, tank, debuff, etc.

@cliftona91 (tried to put a smiley face but it wouldn't lets me)
If its not a difficult fight to begin with (tac cube/etc) just let them die so that maybe they will learn how to build properly. And if it happens to be me in the suicide escort that dies when I shouldn't have be sure to send me a L2Play noob message as I probably deserved it.

@xiphenon
Exactly, and its not even just the tank/healer. Its also the buff/debuff/cc/etc potential that exists but is not taken advantage of.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
04-09-2012, 08:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreael
@USS_Ultimatum
- As far as tanking everything except tac cubes, Donotra, and swarms that is what I meant. Negs, raptors, regular cubes, etc are not a problem to tank in a standard escort unless there are a ton of them all targeting ONLY you. That means for 95% of the STF I am under no threat of dying in a DPS focused ship without a tank present unless I make a mistake.
And how many mistakes does the tank get to make?

More than the escort. That's the trade off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreael
- I know about effective HP, and I know about the higher ranks of boff abilities considering the chart takes into account the various ships will be using higher/lower ranks of them to achieve the stats I listed, the cruiser is running with Epower to shields 3, ironically though it does not have a higher shield power setting than the escort, they are the same (although if cruiser does rotate Epower to weapons it could have a higher one the resistance is insignificant at that point thanks to DR). The resistance from shield power (70 base, forget exact number with Epower) was taken into account to produce those resistance numbers, as was the diminishing returns that were suffered.
I'm running 125 Weapons and 125 Shields on my Dreadnought cycling EPTW 1x2 and EPTS 3x2.

I have 3 Escorts and none of them can do the same.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreael
I also know that the cruiser can stack extra armor consoles to achieve a higher resistance rate and being to suffer from diminishing returns especially when his boff abilities are up. The point of that was to illustrate the fact that the escort is not that far below what the other two are to a significant degree.
And how far below in consistent DPS is the Cruiser from the Escort?

The cruiser has overall, much higher layered resistances than the Escort does.

The balance between the ships and how they function isn't the problem.

The problem is that the death penalty is negligible so no one feels they "need" a Cruiser, and because the Devs have yet to fully correct the one-shot kill ability that the Borg have.

I parse my combat logs constantly. Cruisers are not always doing poor damage, some of them do very respectable damage.

And teams don't auto-fail the optionals just because there are a few cruisers on the team.

Teams fail optionals when players fail as players, don't communicate or don't listen and don't follow the strat.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreael
Yes you can produce a zombie build cruiser that can take 3-4x the damage to pop as the escort by sacrificing the ability to deal damage that is not the point. The point is that there is NO NEED for a tank in an STF.

Then your thread should be focused on that primarily and not the balance between the ships.

Escorts don't need to become more delicate, Cruisers don't need to become harder to kill.



Your thread is all over the place, you go on about how tac team is too powerful and how EPTS1 should be moved up to Lt so escorts basically get weaker in two ways with indirect nerfs.

And then you go on to say that shields are too weak and should be increased 3 fold.


The two statements are working at cross purposes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
04-09-2012, 08:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer View Post
Yeah, but I guess your not Kewl to the l33ts......

Thier loss.
I dare to be different. If they can't do so as well, it's their loss.

@ Kreal: But see I'm a nice guy and would extend their shields or fix their hull. If they blow themselves up after I heal them, then they are idiots.

As one of my Dad's RPG characters would say, 'Glory fades, time heals all wounds, and chicks dig battle scarred ships.

and I think I'm more of a noob than you are. It would be like calling the kettle black.

@ Chiberry: I agree. A Science officer in an Escort can be nearly as deadly as a Tac officer in an escort. My current Sci toon in an Advanced Escort put out over 2,000 damage with each shot (not DPS, dunno how much DPS she puts out), only about 1000 off from my Tac Klingon in his Qin Raptor.

The difference is she can lower resistances with Sensor Scans while my Tac has to use APB for a similar benefit. Drawback is that is only every two minutes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
04-09-2012, 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FB2140 View Post
(but in general random play, Tanky DPS is the name of the dominating game, just as it is here; also a shame.)
Just adding my 2c, but there's a reason my 'IKS Irelia' has the name she does.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
04-09-2012, 10:01 PM
Hate to burst your bubble OP but your analysis of Tanking is wrong. Tanking is not about base defense it is about how many heals you can throw on and how much resistance you can stack up and in that regard Cruisers are undisputed Kings. Escorts suffer from a small amount of healing abilities and a tiny number of device slots leaving them with the worst tanking ability.


Now... There are also Cruiser that can best Escorts in raw DPS. Prime Example being the Tactical Bortasqu. FIVE Tactical Consoles, can have DHC like an Escort + 4 Turrets. It can be loaded with Tactical Abilities and STILL has a huge slew of heals if it needs them and to top it all off it can abuse its Auto Cannon which is a DEVASTATING attack. Granted, a setup like this is only good for STF's where the targets hardly move at all but in an STF the Bortasqu can make Escorts go cry to their mothers in terms of raw DPS. Also, do not forget the Bio-Neural Warhead on the Klink side as well because it is a nasty brute especially combined with the Kinetic bonus from the Honor Guard.




Quote:
Originally Posted by cliftona91
@ Chiberry: I agree. A Science officer in an Escort can be nearly as deadly as a Tac officer in an escort. My current Sci toon in an Advanced Escort put out over 2,000 damage with each shot (not DPS, dunno how much DPS she puts out), only about 1000 off from my Tac Klingon in his Qin Raptor.

The difference is she can lower resistances with Sensor Scans while my Tac has to use APB for a similar benefit. Drawback is that is only every two minutes.

Science Officer cannot actually manage the same DPS but they can be very helpful and in PvP a Sci in an Escort is one sick thing.

Your are forgetting your Tactical Captain's "Fire on my Mark"... Do NOT forget that and do NOT forget their Tactical Initiative or Tactical Fleet either. Also if you are getting hammered their Go Down Fighting can be a huge boost. There is no WAY a Sci can compete for raw damage with a Tactical officer.




Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
And how far below in consistent DPS is the Cruiser from the Escort?

The cruiser has overall, much higher layered resistances than the Escort does.

And teams don't auto-fail the optionals just because there are a few cruisers on the team.

Teams fail optionals when players fail as players, don't communicate or don't listen and don't follow the strat.

The answer to your question depends greatly on WHAT Cruiser we are talking about and WHAT Escort and rather the person who loaded them up had a functional brain or just threw anything that looked flashy on their ship (I KNOW you have seen them...).

The Cruiser's resistance is nice but the main thing with the Cruiser is that it has WAAAAY more healing power than an Escort. If an Escort gets into trouble and cannot zip out then it is going to die but a Cruiser might be able to just take the pounding and keep on coming. I know mine do that all the time.

Teams don't auto-fail because there are a few cruisers... Teams auto-fail when the few cruisers are captained by Engineers... I hate to say it... but honestly Engs in Cruisers are the most miserable lot for dealing damage besides Engs in Sciships. Cruisers NEED a Tactical Captain to feel their full potential and they can tank plenty well this way and dish out some great damage. If you have a lot of Cruisers with Eng Captains you will NOT be able to Debuff enough to get the damage you need... That is pretty much just the fact of it.

However, people screwing up will take care of your optionals even faster, no doubt.
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