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# 21
04-09-2012, 10:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkuu_Akagan
Science Officer cannot actually manage the same DPS but they can be very helpful and in PvP a Sci in an Escort is one sick thing.

Your are forgetting your Tactical Captain's "Fire on my Mark"... Do NOT forget that and do NOT forget their Tactical Initiative or Tactical Fleet either. Also if you are getting hammered their Go Down Fighting can be a huge boost. There is no WAY a Sci can compete for raw damage with a Tactical officer.
On a 3 and 4 minute CD respectively. Tac-fleet is team wide.
It would be more accurate to say that there is no way a Science Captain can compete for raw burst damage with a Tactical Captain. Every 2 to 5 minutes.
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# 22
04-09-2012, 11:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkuu_Akagan
[color="Lime"]Now... There are also Cruiser that can best Escorts in raw DPS. Prime Example being the Tactical Bortasqu. FIVE Tactical Consoles, can have DHC like an Escort + 4 Turrets.
Did you ever fly a Bortas'Q? I fly one, though not the tactical version but the command version because the dmg over time is higher. Installing DHCs on this thing would be just a waste of dps. You need too long to get in position because this ships flies like a supertanker. During the time, you try to bring your bow in position, an escorts would have done plenty of damage already. Plus the fact that you often need to be highly mobile in STFs to destroy probes, spheres or assisting to protect the Kang.

But again, this topic should not be about cruiser damage vs escort damage, this topic should be about improving the role of support ships in end game content.


Quote:
Teams don't auto-fail because there are a few cruisers... Teams auto-fail when the few cruisers are captained by Engineers... I hate to say it... but honestly Engs in Cruisers are the most miserable lot for dealing damage besides Engs in Sciships. Cruisers NEED a Tactical Captain to feel their full potential and they can tank plenty well this way and dish out some great damage. If you have a lot of Cruisers with Eng Captains you will NOT be able to Debuff enough to get the damage you need... That is pretty much just the fact of it.
Speaking as a Klink Eng Captain in a Bortas'Q cruiser specced for fleet support ... thats exactly the reason why end game content as a supporter is so frustrating. You can work a group with 5 dmg dealers without any problem, but at the same time, a group with 5 supports will eventually fail. And - also many TAC escorts will cry a river - that must be adressed in the terms of game balance. Because otherwise there will be no class diversity among the players in the furture - and those rare people, eager to play a support role, simply leave the game.
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# 23
04-10-2012, 12:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkuu_Akagan
Teams don't auto-fail because there are a few cruisers... Teams auto-fail when the few cruisers are captained by Engineers... I hate to say it... but honestly Engs in Cruisers are the most miserable lot for dealing damage besides Engs in Sciships.
Woah, while I would say it's not close to efficient, I do disagree with the sweeping claim that Engie captains in cruisers put out insufficient damage for an STF (though, as you say, many factors are in play, especially which particular cruisers!). Their offensive arsenal does include Nadion Inversion and EPS Power Transfer (assuming they're not already running EPtWeapons or batteries), which for a beam cruiser does mean six or so arrays firing at 125 with minimal power drain that they can couple with Fire at Will and/or AP:Beta, and I'm sure you would agree that packs quite a punch. Furthermore, their defensive arsenal also supplements their offensive potential in a way that cannot be quantified, that being their staying power to continue an attack where an equivalent escort would have to disengage (or respawn), and obviously the cruiser excels at this task; it would not be a stretch to presume many people are Engie captains or fly cruisers for this very distinction.

That said, do the innate skills of an Engie captain—in whatever ship—contribute less raw potential damage to the team compared to the other captains? Yes, definitely, when compared to the team benefits of Sci's Sensor Scan or Tac's slew of just about everything, just by nature of what an Engie captain was supposed to be for doing (resist, tanking, monolithic staying power for themselves and their team)—I bet even Nadion Inversion for offensive potential was an accident at best, and it's not even good. But at that point, it's no longer about how much damage the Engie captains are putting out in their not-escorts, and more about how much damage the Engie captains are not putting out compared to if they had been Tactical captains instead, right?

In short, all the issues here can be summed up as, "[any ship here] NEED(s) a Tactical Captain to feel their full potential". Why do they support a design in space PvE where, flying any ship other than an escort, and playing a captain that is any role but tactical, requires slews of excuses and justification? Why make Engie captains, cruisers, Sci captains, and science vessels, in their intended roles, all sub-par and/or obsolete to some extent or another? Is the entire depth of what they have in mind for space PvE to be nothing but "raw dps"? There sure as hell isn't that problem in ground PvE or the entirety of PvP, where sure, damage is nice, but anything is viable, and strategy, skill, and coordination are more highly lauded! So what the hell happened to space PvE?
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# 24
04-10-2012, 01:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FB2140 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkuu_Akagan
Teams don't auto-fail because there are a few cruisers... Teams auto-fail when the few cruisers are captained by Engineers... I hate to say it... but honestly Engs in Cruisers are the most miserable lot for dealing damage besides Engs in Sciships.
Woah, while I would say it's not close to efficient, I do disagree with the sweeping claim that Engie captains in cruisers put out insufficient damage for an STF
I think, this again, fulls under what I said above. 2~5 minute cool-downs.
For up to 45 seconds every 5 minutes Tactical Captains are DPS Gods. And this has gotten them a reputation that is rather exaggerated when the subject of Science and Engineers are brought into the conversation. 45 seconds out of 5 minutes isn't very much. And after that is expired, they're just as meek as everyone else.

I believe that if you remove those precious 2~5 minute Powers completely off of every Captain career in the game and put them all in identical a ships, any of the ships, with the same load-out, the same training, the same BOff's and the same BOff Powers, they will all be standing on equal ground for output compared to each other.
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# 25
04-10-2012, 04:14 AM
Let me try one more time to state my original point.

DPS is the ONLY role that is NEEDED in an STF. Other roles can at various times be USEFUL to varying degrees but are never as DESIRED or as USEFUL as raw DPS. 5 DPS vessels will complete an STF faster than 5 tanks, 5 healers, 5 CC ships, etc.

Everything else is supporting evidence to that. I know a cruiser can take more punishment than an escort but I don't CARE in an STF because I have no need to tank more damage. I say its because escorts are too tanky to begin with, you say its cause the death penalty, that is fine. But they are not needed.

Yes, it is true that you can take your science vessel and cruiser and turn them into respectable DPS. But that is boring and silly to me like trying to fit a square into a round hole. They have so many other potential options that I would rather have be desired in an STF.

And there is a variety of reasons for this state of affairs. From a strong defensive ability adding damage (tac team), to one of the Epower abilities to being clearly stronger/more useful than the others (shields) and the overall design of the STFs. Along with attack pattern beta being such a huge boost to team STF damage, exotic power damage being so low, and various other factors.

If you really want to experience what I mean try taking a ship that is NOT focused on DPS and do some PuG STFs.
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# 26
04-10-2012, 06:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiberry
On a 3 and 4 minute CD respectively. Tac-fleet is team wide.
It would be more accurate to say that there is no way a Science Captain can compete for raw burst damage with a Tactical Captain. Every 2 to 5 minutes.
I forgot Attack Pattern Alpha which gives a full 50% Boost... The fact is the Tactical Captain outshines a Sci in DPS something fierce unless the Photonic Fleet suddenly became awesome over night. All the Sci Captain has for added DPS is Their Sensor Scan which takes a fair while to cool down and the Photonic Fleet which... Well... Does not add a LOT of DPS if we are being honest here. Whereas Tacticals get Attack Pattern Alpha, Fire on my Mark, Tactical Initiative, Tactical Fleet, AND Go Down Fighting. Fairly big list and it makes a serious difference. With the same ship and setup I can score 40~60K Crits with my Tactical while my Sci is lucky to get 20~40K Crits.


Quote:
Originally Posted by xiphenon
Did you ever fly a Bortas'Q? I fly one, though not the tactical version but the command version because the dmg over time is higher. Installing DHCs on this thing would be just a waste of dps. You need too long to get in position because this ships flies like a supertanker. During the time, you try to bring your bow in position, an escorts would have done plenty of damage already. Plus the fact that you often need to be highly mobile in STFs to destroy probes, spheres or assisting to protect the Kang.

But again, this topic should not be about cruiser damage vs escort damage, this topic should be about improving the role of support ships in end game content.

Speaking as a Klink Eng Captain in a Bortas'Q cruiser specced for fleet support ... thats exactly the reason why end game content as a supporter is so frustrating. You can work a group with 5 dmg dealers without any problem, but at the same time, a group with 5 supports will eventually fail. And - also many TAC escorts will cry a river - that must be adressed in the terms of game balance. Because otherwise there will be no class diversity among the players in the furture - and those rare people, eager to play a support role, simply leave the game.

Um... In STF's you do NOT need to be that mobile... I DO fly one of these beasts in-fact and you have never seen a transformer or cube go away faster than when it takes a full pounding from my Autocannon. In PvP using DHC's is a waste but in STF's it is fully viable. Engine Batteries, Dueterium Surplus, Attack Pattern Alpha and Omega can all get your bow on target faster and most things are sitting still. Probes and BoP's are so easy to kill that I needn't bother turn my ship to engage them. Just let my rear arrays kill them or the BoP pet.

I will agree that Support Roles outside of PvP are largely not required. It is all Raw DPS in STF's with perhaps a bit of GW or Tykens help to disable the enemies... That should NOT be the way of it but it is.




Quote:
Originally Posted by FB2140 View Post
Woah, while I would say it's not close to efficient, I do disagree with the sweeping claim that Engie captains in cruisers put out insufficient damage for an STF (though, as you say, many factors are in play, especially which particular cruisers!). Their offensive arsenal does include Nadion Inversion and EPS Power Transfer (assuming they're not already running EPtWeapons or batteries), which for a beam cruiser does mean six or so arrays firing at 125 with minimal power drain that they can couple with Fire at Will and/or AP:Beta, and I'm sure you would agree that packs quite a punch. Furthermore, their defensive arsenal also supplements their offensive potential in a way that cannot be quantified, that being their staying power to continue an attack where an equivalent escort would have to disengage (or respawn), and obviously the cruiser excels at this task; it would not be a stretch to presume many people are Engie captains or fly cruisers for this very distinction.

That said, do the innate skills of an Engie captain—in whatever ship—contribute less raw potential damage to the team compared to the other captains? Yes, definitely, when compared to the team benefits of Sci's Sensor Scan or Tac's slew of just about everything, just by nature of what an Engie captain was supposed to be for doing (resist, tanking, monolithic staying power for themselves and their team)—I bet even Nadion Inversion for offensive potential was an accident at best, and it's not even good. But at that point, it's no longer about how much damage the Engie captains are putting out in their not-escorts, and more about how much damage the Engie captains are not putting out compared to if they had been Tactical captains instead, right?

In short, all the issues here can be summed up as, "[any ship here] NEED(s) a Tactical Captain to feel their full potential". Why do they support a design in space PvE where, flying any ship other than an escort, and playing a captain that is any role but tactical, requires slews of excuses and justification? Why make Engie captains, cruisers, Sci captains, and science vessels, in their intended roles, all sub-par and/or obsolete to some extent or another? Is the entire depth of what they have in mind for space PvE to be nothing but "raw dps"? There sure as hell isn't that problem in ground PvE or the entirety of PvP, where sure, damage is nice, but anything is viable, and strategy, skill, and coordination are more highly lauded! So what the hell happened to space PvE?
It packs a little punch but it does not come anywhere close to the punch of Torps and full on DBB's (at bare minimum) Overload with Attack Pattern Alpha, Attack Pattern Beta, Fire on my Mark, Tactical Fleet, Tactical Team, and Possibly Go Down Fighting all running at once. I have seen it time and again... Engs just do NOT bring the punch to the table. They do some great things for Escorts but in Cruisers they just do not have the force they need.

Cruisers do not NEED help staying alive. They are tough enough any Captain can keep them afloat. Engs belong in Escorts where that added survivability coupled with the Escort's raw damage means they can keep withering fire on the target pretty much indefinitely. I know, I have an Eng in a Guramba and she may not deal the same damage as a Tact would but that ship is nearly unkillable.

As for what happened to Space PvE... I have no idea... It got simplified into stupidity for the most part. It is like they wanted every thug to be able to do it so they made it as simple as possible: "Go shoot this. Go shoot that. Go shoot more stuff! You win!"
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# 27
04-10-2012, 07:28 AM
Nice, well written post. I agree with a lot of it. However the few things that I see missing...

Tacs in Sci Vessels or cruisers - I often fly a Nebula, and watch the escorts hammer at Tac Cube shields, I swoop in, Tyken's Rift 3 = Shields down and 500+ DPS, Target Shields 1, Tractor Repulsors 1 = 1500 DPS, after 15 seconds Gravity Well 1 = 1200 DPS, all added to my weapons, also the longer I live, sensor analysis does more. After 1 attack run the Tac Cube is at 40% or less, I then speed out of range with Polarize Hull active because He is now after me. Wait for reccol and he is dead on the second pass.

Extend Shields and heals from Cruiser and Science Ships given to an Escort that allow him to stay up close and on target for the whole fight, without dying. I know this is rare these days, but I have done it.

8 beam Engineer Cruisers (Excelsior) with Directed Energy Modulation x2 and Emergency Power to Weapons and Fire At Will 2 and Attack Pattern Beta 2, watch out!

I do not agree that we need shield capacity increased,, sorry. even with 18% consoles shield HP is too high now, with Tac Team as it is. I would recommend a bigger gap between the ship types Capacities and Regen numbers. Also making Warp Cores an Item like Engines and Shields, and Cruisers get some kind of advantage from that, like maybe a higher cap on energy settings. The current bunuses could allow for increase over the cap.

I also feel many people got caught up in the CAPTAINs power not the SHIPs power. I read the OP to be about ships. Seems people forget Tac captains can fly Cruisers and Science ships too. Engineers and Science Captains fly Escorts a lot too.

Do not read this as a negative post, 3 small things I don't agree with in a post of the OP size is minor. Most non-skilled players are FAR better at doing damage in an escort. I see many players debuff Tac Cubes to nothing, then spend 10 minutes wearing him down because they don't do nearly enough damage. Which is the biggest issue, skill, combined with playstyle. Too many people just don't care to develop skills in what they consider a LOL RPG game about TREK not about skill. And many do not equate skill with having fun. But you enjoy doing things more if you are good at them.
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# 28
04-10-2012, 11:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuccaneerDTB
Nice, well written post. I agree with a lot of it. However the few things that I see missing...

Tacs in Sci Vessels or cruisers - I often fly a Nebula, and watch the escorts hammer at Tac Cube shields, I swoop in, Tyken's Rift 3 = Shields down and 500+ DPS, Target Shields 1, Tractor Repulsors 1 = 1500 DPS, after 15 seconds Gravity Well 1 = 1200 DPS, all added to my weapons, also the longer I live, sensor analysis does more. After 1 attack run the Tac Cube is at 40% or less, I then speed out of range with Polarize Hull active because He is now after me. Wait for reccol and he is dead on the second pass.

Extend Shields and heals from Cruiser and Science Ships given to an Escort that allow him to stay up close and on target for the whole fight, without dying. I know this is rare these days, but I have done it.

8 beam Engineer Cruisers (Excelsior) with Directed Energy Modulation x2 and Emergency Power to Weapons and Fire At Will 2 and Attack Pattern Beta 2, watch out!

I do not agree that we need shield capacity increased,, sorry. even with 18% consoles shield HP is too high now, with Tac Team as it is. I would recommend a bigger gap between the ship types Capacities and Regen numbers. Also making Warp Cores an Item like Engines and Shields, and Cruisers get some kind of advantage from that, like maybe a higher cap on energy settings. The current bunuses could allow for increase over the cap.

I also feel many people got caught up in the CAPTAINs power not the SHIPs power. I read the OP to be about ships. Seems people forget Tac captains can fly Cruisers and Science ships too. Engineers and Science Captains fly Escorts a lot too.

Do not read this as a negative post, 3 small things I don't agree with in a post of the OP size is minor. Most non-skilled players are FAR better at doing damage in an escort. I see many players debuff Tac Cubes to nothing, then spend 10 minutes wearing him down because they don't do nearly enough damage. Which is the biggest issue, skill, combined with playstyle. Too many people just don't care to develop skills in what they consider a LOL RPG game about TREK not about skill. And many do not equate skill with having fun. But you enjoy doing things more if you are good at them.
You spark my interest! You have an interesting idea with this "Core" or at the very least the different shield configurations among ship types. Perhaps it could break down something like this:

Escorts have the most overclocked Cores and as such they have the highest Regeneration for their shields of all ships.

Cruisers have the largest Cores so they have the highest Capacity due to having the most power to funnel into their shield grid.

Science Ships have the most advanced sensors in the fleet so they can modulate their shields to compensate for enemy fire giving them the most Shield Resistance of any type of ship out there.


What do you think about that idea? That seems to make some sense and could drastically alter the balance a bit. This way each Shield would offer a base amount but what type of ship equipped it would change its end stats.
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# 29
04-11-2012, 08:36 AM
A few ways that can easily make Science ships more 'effective' without impeding Escorts high DPS or Cruisers DPM (Minute), is;

A) Give all targets SHIELDS (Or minimize the amount of unshielded targets). In the original STFs. the only things that didn't have shields were, the gate in Infected, and KA, and in Cure, the pre-cursor to the Nanite Generators basically which you had to destroy 4~5 of the 9 that were there. A whopping total of 12 units in all three missions! Only 3 of them having a massive amount of HP.

Now: In Infected 11 Units unshielded, and only 9 shielded targets (doesn't include what spawns from the gate), and all 11 of them have fairly high amount of HP.
Cure has, 12 unshielded targets and 10 shielded (not including what spawns from the docks).
KA has a whopping 22! Unshielded targets, and only 6 Shielded targets! (not including what may spawn from the gates.)

Note, these are from Elite, Normal Infected and KA will have slightly more shielded units, Cure doesn't change from Normal to Elite.

B) Give Borg's ships a smaller 'total shield HP' but at the same time increasing the 'resistance' level, in effect, keeping the 'effective shield HP' the same.
This with along with point A, would give science ships something to do, with say... Charged Particle Burst, and Tachyon Beam!, Two mainstays of Science ships abilities. While Science ships wouldn't normally have the ability to do RAW damage to shields, CPB and TachB, do damage to shields with out worries about resistance. (Though this could be applied to ALL Enemy ships, to make them more friendly to Science ships, without changing anything useful about the bursty damage of escorts or sustained of cruisers.) (Then again with this change with resistances to these abilities this just might things mute.)

C) Now for more CC-wise, maybe could have it where in like KA, the probes 'could' heal each other (slowly, NOT instantly like in the Red Alerts), but ONLY if they were 2km apart from each other. and they would try to keep their distance away, but Throw a GW at them, and they come together, they can't heal each other any more. maybe now in fact, the ability starts to damage each other ships cause of the 'temporal raditation' or some other technobabble

D) Another way, is to bring the original Donatara back in regards to the cloaking ability. It used to be that science ships could force her back out from cloak, or at least see her before everyone else could. That ability for science ship needs to be bought back, becuase outside of PvP, there is simple NOTHING in this game that requires the decloaking nature of CPB or Sensor Scan.

That alone would make science ships to be more desirable again, or at least more 'useful', because also Donatra used to heal her self while cloaked, so if you didn't decloak her fast enough, her health would go up. (though granted sometimes you had to de-cloak her 2~3 times in a very short time but would help tremendously from her healing herself)
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# 30
04-11-2012, 09:40 AM
After driving all three types of ships, I do believe that the science ships need a little bit more "ELINT" capability and the cruisers need a tad bit more hull to better seperate them and make all the ships more desirable.
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